US Politics Thread

[Federberg]

This is not accurate. A lot of agreements and treaties were "inherited" by Russia as it was the consensus among all parties that someone should play that role (a lot of non-proliferation agreements are good examples of that). So no agreement or treaty were immediately voided by either the fall of the wall (which only has symbolic value), or the collapse of the Soviet Union. Given that the republics that constituted the Soviet Union never ceased to exist, they were all signees of the original treaties.

Of course, each case has its own story, but there was indeed an NATO Russia agreement in place. There is Russian propaganda, yes, but there is also CNN propaganda. In this particular case, saying that there was no agreement (which is what CNN propaganda says) is waaaaay more distant from the truth than Russian propaganda.

there was no NATO/Russia treaty. There was a NATO/ Soviet Union Treaty. This is a fact, and it's easy to tell by the time when the treaty was signed. If half the members of an association that signed a treaty then repudiate that treaty by joining the other party (which was in a large part what the treaty was meant to prevent), it's naive to say it hasn't been voided. Furthermore, if Putin himself speculated about joining NATO at a later date, it's a bit rich to cry foul when Ukraine decades later talks about joining the EU. See there? Ukraine wanted to join the EU, not NATO. Something Russia in recent negotiations has claimed it has no problem with, but was an excuse for invasion in 2014. You might infer that because Russia was the hegemon in the Soviet Union that the treaty was de facto between NATO and the Russian Federation. But no one would reasonably claim that a treaty between NATO and another party is de facto between the United States and that other party. It doesn't work that way. It blows my mind how much Russian misinformation is just accepted as fact these days.

And by the way, my mention of the Berlin Wall was due to the fact that the main reason for the treaty in the first place was German reunification. The Soviet Union was willing to accept it (there was at least as much resistance to unification from France and Britain) but wanted assurances that there would be no further movement eastwards, as in effect the unified Germany would be a NATO member

 

[mrzz]

there was no NATO/Russia treaty. There was a NATO/ Soviet Union Treaty. This is a fact, and it's easy to tell by the time when the treaty was signed. If half the members of an association that signed a treaty then repudiate that treaty by joining the other party (which was in a large part what the treaty was meant to prevent), it's naive to say it hasn't been voided. Furthermore, if Putin himself speculated about joining NATO at a later date, it's a bit rich to cry foul when Ukraine decades later talks about joining the EU. See there? Ukraine wanted to join the EU, not NATO. Something Russia in recent negotiations has claimed it has no problem with, but was an excuse for invasion in 2014. You might infer that because Russia was the hegemon in the Soviet Union that the treaty was de facto between NATO and the Russian Federation. But no one would reasonably claim that a treaty between NATO and another party is de facto between the United States and that other party. It doesn't work that way. It blows my mind how much Russian misinformation is just accepted as fact these days.

And by the way, my mention of the Berlin Wall was due to the fact that the main reason for the treaty in the first place was German reunification. The Soviet Union was willing to accept it (there was at least as much resistance to unification from France and Britain) but wanted assurances that there would be no further movement eastwards, as in effect the unified Germany would be a NATO member

It was former members of the Warsaw pact that joined NATO, not former members of the Soviet Union (more than half, actually). I do not have enough information to say if there were or not formal treaties between NATO and Russia regarding NATO expansion, but it is a matter of public record that there were a lot of discussions and negotiations regarding this topic. I have never seen any categorical denials of those compromises, not before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and not even after, by the way. You can always say that Russia was naive to believe in any promises made to her, but then it is obvious that they would use said promises as justification.

 

[britbox]

It was former members of the Warsaw pact that joined NATO, not former members of the Soviet Union (more than half, actually). I do not have enough information to say if there were or not formal treaties between NATO and Russia regarding NATO expansion, but it is a matter of public record that there were a lot of discussions and negotiations regarding this topic. I have never seen any categorical denials of those compromises, not before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and not even after, by the way. You can always say that Russia was naive to believe in any promises made to her, but then it is obvious that they would use said promises as justification.

I think this is correct. My understanding is that there was no formal agreement about NATO expansion in any treaties or agreements. But there were some informal spoken assurances ruling out Eastward expansion. However, there were a few soviet republics who did join NATO - Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania joined.

Still, I hardly think you can blame the Russians for seeing encirclement as a dangerous threat. I think the Ukraine events in 2014 - a democratically elected government overthrown was probably the last straw - especially given some of the other things going on in Odessa, Crimea and the Donbass.

 

[Federberg]

It was former members of the Warsaw pact that joined NATO, not former members of the Soviet Union (more than half, actually). I do not have enough information to say if there were or not formal treaties between NATO and Russia regarding NATO expansion, but it is a matter of public record that there were a lot of discussions and negotiations regarding this topic. I have never seen any categorical denials of those compromises, not before the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and not even after, by the way. You can always say that Russia was naive to believe in any promises made to her, but then it is obvious that they would use said promises as justification.

The Baltics and Romania were a part of the Soviet Union, and are now NATO members. There haven't been any official comments about it from NATO or it's member states. Why would they bother? The only country that tries to construct a narrative about this is Russia. For it's own justification. The same country that claimed days before it's invasion of Ukraine that it wouldn't do so. They claim that they don't kill civilians but intentionally bombed residential areas and destroyed power stations to force Ukrainian society to capitulate in the winter. These are not honest people, there is not "both sides" to this. These are clear breaches of the Geneva convention. I'll give this to them though... their information warfare and disinformation is top notch...

For Russia to be naive they would have had to have been misled. The same Russia that has a problem with Ukraine joining NATO, happily speculated in the past about joining the organisation. I repeat, the reason Russia doesn't want Ukraine in NATO, is not because it fears aggression from a defensive organisation, but because it would not be able to invade Ukraine once it's a member. People keep getting it wrong. They don't fear aggression, frankly NATO has been embarrassingly passive despite Russian provocations. They fear NOT having the option to make wars of aggression against a country that joins NATO.

 

[mrzz]

The Baltics and Romania were a part of the Soviet Union, and are now NATO members.

The Baltic states yes, not Romania. The Baltic states probably comprised less than 1% percent of the Soviet Union area, maybe a tiny bit more population wise.

 

[Federberg]

The Baltic states yes, not Romania. The Baltic states probably comprised less than 1% percent of the Soviet Union area, maybe a tiny bit more population wise.

you're correct, not sure why I said that

 

[Murat B.]

I sincerely believe every single person on the tennis frontier platform can beat Ketanji B Jackson on any argument regarding any subject. I have never seen or heard anyone so unqualified for any position in my entire life. It is as if she was put in the SCOTUS so that when she is called out for the retard that she is, we can all be accused of racism and sexism. Actually a brilliant move by the Dems, country be damned.

 

[Federberg]

I sincerely believe every single person on the tennis frontier platform can beat Ketanji B Jackson on any argument regarding any subject. I have never seen or heard anyone so unqualified for any position in my entire life. It is as if she was put in the SCOTUS so that when she is called out for the retard that she is, we can all be accused of racism and sexism. Actually a brilliant move by the Dems, country be damned.

lol! Did anything specific happen to make you say this? I do recall at her confirmation hearing that she couldn't define what a woman is. But apart from that rabid ideological nonsense, I thought she was a sound, if liberal, mind

 

[Murat B.]

lol! Did anything specific happen to make you say this? I do recall at her confirmation hearing that she couldn't define what a woman is. But apart from that rabid ideological nonsense, I thought she was a sound, if liberal, mind

Her arguments in the birth right citizenship case going on. Unbelievable.

 

[Federberg]

Her arguments in the birth right citizenship case going on. Unbelievable.

can you post a clip?

 

[Federberg]

 

[Federberg]

The more I think about it, the more I think Trump is going to be a historic disaster for the US military industrial complex. I don't think his catastrophic decisions could be scripted to be more detrimental to American defence contractors. And if he carries out his threat to leave NATO (let's be clear, he's already done this effectively by threatening to invade Greenland), then why on earth would any European country buy American weapons. It's already apparent to all consumers that buying the weapons doesn't confer full agency of use. For a lot of them you're locked in to US satellites and you basically need permission to use them. That's not ownership. More like some sort of perverted rental system. I can't see how this works for a country's national security interests when the US is such an unreliable partner. And it's not just Trump. Remember when Biden unilaterally exited Afghanistan without really consulting his European allies? It's such a colossal own goal. I honestly don't get it.

If that was the only thing, it might be resolvable, but it's worse than that. The Russia-Ukraine war and now the war with Iran is exposing the fact that super advanced ultra expensive kit is vulnerable to cheap drone technology. So what do folks think a Europe that's re-arming is going to do? Are they going to spend billions on warships, tanks and fighter jets, or are they going to use the data and live iterative drone evolution of the Russia-Ukraine war to re-arm? When you consider the fact that $100bn of drone tech gets you much much further than what you would get investing in warships and fighter jets (some of those bits of kit cost over a billion just for one!), you can see the game is over. The next half decade is going to be truly fascinating. Keep an eye on how Germany re-arms. Look for what they spend money on...

 

[Federberg]

I think this is an absolutely essential watch, to understand Trump. @Moxie please watch this. You won't regret it.

 

[Front242]

Trump and his delusional clowns giving another supposed ultimatum to Iran. Gfy, you orangutan warmongering pos. If you attack civilian electrical and water infrastructure as you threatened, it's gonna be 48 hours till Iran blow the living shit out of Israel and the US bases in the middle east. Bring it on!

Hegseth "We will negotiate with bombs." You fucking waste of space. Someone should strap him to the end of an ICBM along with Trump and Netanyahu and launch them into depths of hell where they belong.

 

[Murat B.]

Trump and his delusional clowns giving another supposed ultimatum to Iran. Gfy, you orangutan warmongering pos. If you attack civilian electrical and water infrastructure as you threatened, it's gonna be 48 hours till Iran blow the living shit out of Israel and the US bases in the middle east. Bring it on!

Hegseth "We will negotiate with bombs." You fucking waste of space. Someone should strap him to the end of an ICBM along with Trump and Netanyahu and launch them into depths of hell where they belong.

If you forward this e mail to 10 friends, you will win a FREE Suicide Vest from our friends at Boko Haram !!!! BUT WAIT !!! Another 10 emails and the next vest is half price !!!

Listen , I can tell you are not much of an Israel fan ...and do not care particularly for the US either. Fine and dandy. But what and who do you stand for? If I go by the opposite of what you don't like, I am left with Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Ayetollahs in Iran, Russia...but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

You are the ruler of the world . What do you do?

 

[Federberg]

Thought these posts were awesome!! Absolutely cooking

 

[Front242]

If you forward this e mail to 10 friends, you will win a FREE Suicide Vest from our friends at Boko Haram !!!! BUT WAIT !!! Another 10 emails and the next vest is half price !!!

Listen , I can tell you are not much of an Israel fan ...and do not care particularly for the US either. Fine and dandy. But what and who do you stand for? If I go by the opposite of what you don't like, I am left with Islamic Jihad, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Ayetollahs in Iran, Russia...but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

You are the ruler of the world . What do you do?

Here's what you do. You don't attack a country who didn't attack you in the first place and had no intention of doing so. The US are a fucking disgrace. The price of petrol and diesel is insane now in much of the world and all thanks to the pos US government and Netanyahu. They're destroying the world economy in an unnecessary war they started for absolutely fucking nothing.

I had this typed this before work this morning and forgot to post and since then I see that orange pos has threatened to blow up the entire country. What an absolute pos he is to threaten a whole nation like that. I hope Iran bomb the US bases and Israel back to the stone age. They fucking deserve it.

 

[Kieran]

Here's what you do. You don't attack a country who didn't attack you in the first place and had no intention of doing so. The US are a fucking disgrace. The price of petrol and diesel is insane now in much of the world and all thanks to the pos US government and Netanyahu. They're destroying the world economy in an unnecessary war they started for absolutely fucking nothing.

I had this typed this before work this morning and forgot to post and since then I see that orange pos has threatened to blow up the entire country. What an absolute pos he is to threaten a whole nation like that. I hope Iran bomb the US bases and Israel back to the stone age. They fucking deserve it.

Are you fucking nuts? Iran never had an intention to attack America, and Israel? Are you saying this with a straight face?

Why do you always defend without fail the most wicked, evil despots?

 

[Front242]

Are you fucking nuts? Iran never had an intention to attack America, and Israel? Are you saying this with a straight face?

Why do you always defend without fail the most wicked, evil despots?

You really think Iran was going to attack the US? Most people sure as hell don't. They've a history with that pos nation Israel so that's different and wasn't started by them either but, no, they weren't going to attack the US. They need self defense against both these barbaric, animal nations.

 

[Kieran]

You really think Iran was going to attack the US? Most people sure as hell don't. They've a history with that pos nation Israel so that's different and wasn't started by them either but, no, they weren't going to attack the US. They need self defense against both these barbaric, animal nations.

Stop thinking like these common twittish activists we see and hear polluting our brainwaves in Ireland with their immature, sheeplike, prejudiced views. Iran have stated constantly stated since they began to be ruled by the Ayatollahs of Mordor that they want nothing more than to nuke the “Great Satan” and the “Little Satan” as soon as they’re capable of it.

Not gonna happen, chap, and believe me, if the hardline nuts in the ME get their way and destroy Israel, it would be the worst day in your life, and then things will get really bad. You just don’t have the wit to understand why..