UK Politics Thread

[britbox]

General Thread for UK Politics

A few talking points to kick off proceedings but take this down any route you wish....

Is May the right leader for the Conservative Party?

Will Article 50 definitely be invoked?

Are UKIP a busted flush now that Brexit has been voted for?

Is Corbyn the right man to lead the Labour Party?

Will Corbyn end up leading the Labour Party?

Are the Lib Dems now totally irrelevant?

What are the biggest external overseas concerns for the populace of the United States?

Should the Trident Nuclear Programme be pursued?

 

[calitennis127]

Britbox, I can tell you that the perception of the narrow-minded, culturally illiterate bigots who comprise the American media is that everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist. This assessment comes overwhelmingly from American college graduates who do not even know a foreign language and could not tell you the first thing about the Bible, the Qu'ran, or any other significant book in the history of the world. For them, Brexit was simply a case of "racist" Brits hating Muslims, even though these same white people base their entire worldview (ironically) on bigotry toward Christianity and certain white groups that they hate, and they have no problem with Latino groups openly declaring that California should be a Hispanic state and that whites should go back to Europe.

My view is that Britain's secession from the European Union was a legitimate exercise of sovereign authority and that in the long run the economic ramifications for the U.S. will be minute. For U.S. leaders like John Kerry, Britain's departure from the EU was a moral issue, not an economic one.

 

[Federberg]

I agree Cali. The majority of voters, like @britbox has often argued were dissatisfied with the lack of democratic accountability in EU institutions. Indeed many, like me, of those who voted to remain were also unhappy with the same issue, but felt that on balance staying in the EU was in Britain's best interest. The other side won, so we'll have to make the best of it.

I should add, that rather sadly, some of the Brexit campaigners did seek to stir racist fears, and judging by the increasing in racist attacks since the vote, they were successful

 

[Federberg]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...r-should-have-to-seek-nominations-court-hears

 

[Federberg]

I read an interesting article in the FT this morning about the voting intentions of French youth. It seems that even though Front National has a lot of social policies that are diametrically opposed to their "progressive" views, the issue of security trumps (ironic huh?) all. They are planning to vote in overwhelming numbers for Marine Le Pen. Frexit in the near future anyone?

 

[britbox]

Britbox, I can tell you that the perception of the narrow-minded, culturally illiterate bigots who comprise the American media is that everyone who voted for Brexit is a racist. This assessment comes overwhelmingly from American college graduates who do not even know a foreign language and could not tell you the first thing about the Bible, the Qu'ran, or any other significant book in the history of the world. For them, Brexit was simply a case of "racist" Brits hating Muslims, even though these same white people base their entire worldview (ironically) on bigotry toward Christianity and certain white groups that they hate, and they have no problem with Latino groups openly declaring that California should be a Hispanic state and that whites should go back to Europe.

My view is that Britain's secession from the European Union was a legitimate exercise of sovereign authority and that in the long run the economic ramifications for the U.S. will be minute. For U.S. leaders like John Kerry, Britain's departure from the EU was a moral issue, not an economic one.

Unfortunately there are also some Brits who share a particular view that the only reason to possibly vote for leaving was purely down to some form of racism or a "Little Ingerlander" mentality... The venom spouted off on social media was pretty unpleasant.

I didn't cast a vote because I don't live there but would have voted Brexit. My extended family still in the UK were split on the issue.

Sovereignty was my main issue but I also think the EU is doomed to fail in it's present format. The Eurozone is a tinderbox and the whole political structure is a largely unaccountable bureaucracy. I don't believe in any project where leaders can't be removed at the ballot box.

The UK will likely suffer some economic pain initially but several years down the line, the decision will be vindicated. My guess at least.

Immigration was an issue for a lot of people and that doesn't have to be a racist argument. I'm all for controlled immigration - but uncontrolled immigration just seems like a recipe for disaster...

 

[Ricardo]

Unfortunately there are also some Brits who share a particular view that the only reason to possibly vote for leaving was purely down to some form of racism or a "Little Ingerlander" mentality... The venom spouted off on social media was pretty unpleasant.

I didn't cast a vote because I don't live there but would have voted Brexit. My extended family still in the UK were split on the issue.

Sovereignty was my main issue but I also think the EU is doomed to fail in it's present format. The Eurozone is a tinderbox and the whole political structure is a largely unaccountable bureaucracy. I don't believe in any project where leaders can't be removed at the ballot box.

The UK will likely suffer some economic pain initially but several years down the line, the decision will be vindicated. My guess at least.

Immigration was an issue for a lot of people and that doesn't have to be a racist argument. I'm all for controlled immigration - but uncontrolled immigration just seems like a recipe for disaster...

like in Australia at the moment, it may not qualify as 'uncontrolled' but certainly badly controlled.

 

[calitennis127]

I agree Cali. The majority of voters, like @britbox has often argued were dissatisfied with the lack of democratic accountability in EU institutions. Indeed many, like me, of those who voted to remain were also unhappy with the same issue, but felt that on balance staying in the EU was in Britain's best interest. The other side won, so we'll have to make the best of it.

I should add, that rather sadly, some of the Brexit campaigners did seek to stir racist fears, and judging by the increasing in racist attacks since the vote, they were successful

Racist how and against who?

 

[calitennis127]

Unfortunately there are also some Brits who share a particular view that the only reason to possibly vote for leaving was purely down to some form of racism or a "Little Ingerlander" mentality... The venom spouted off on social media was pretty unpleasant.

I didn't cast a vote because I don't live there but would have voted Brexit. My extended family still in the UK were split on the issue.

Sovereignty was my main issue but I also think the EU is doomed to fail in it's present format. The Eurozone is a tinderbox and the whole political structure is a largely unaccountable bureaucracy. I don't believe in any project where leaders can't be removed at the ballot box.

The UK will likely suffer some economic pain initially but several years down the line, the decision will be vindicated. My guess at least.

Immigration was an issue for a lot of people and that doesn't have to be a racist argument. I'm all for controlled immigration - but uncontrolled immigration just seems like a recipe for disaster...

Good points britbox, but you have to understand that by the strict definition of "racism" as hostile discrimination against a particular racial group or in favor of a particular group, both the EU leaders and their counterparts in the Democratic Party in the U.S. are racists. They deliberately favor nonwhite groups over whites at every turn. In the U.S., they celebrate whites becoming a minority by 2040, and in Europe, the German leadership is openly going to the opposite extreme of Hitler in being anti-white. The universalist and egalitarian denunciations of racism are a mask for targeting white Christian identity.

This question overshadows everything else. So when you make a completely rational assessment of the Eurozone as an "unaccountable bureaucracy," this doesn't even matter. The left in both Europe and America see the EU as the administrative force for reconstructing demographic patterns and all traditional identities. It is a moral question to them.

Most normal people around the world over the centuries, whether they are white or non-white, don't "hate" foreigners the way the left tries to describe. Most Indians love India and want it to remain majority Indian. Most Poles love Poland and want it to remain majority Polish. This is not because they are race-conscious but because they self-identify with distinct cultural groups. This is part of what makes the world rich and diverse and interesting. If everyone went their own way and minded their own business, we could avoid a lot of problems. But the EU leaders as well as the ruling class of the U.S. are revolutionaries. They will only go down through humiliation or seeing their worldview implode before their eyes. There is no other option for totalitarians.

The current EU leadership is as insane as Hitler. You cannot communicate with such people. They are trying to pull off demonic revolutions at all costs and will not stop until they lose the power that allows them to continue trying to bring the revolutions about.

 

[britbox]

Good points britbox, but you have to understand that by the strict definition of "racism" as hostile discrimination against a particular racial group or in favor of a particular group, both the EU leaders and their counterparts in the Democratic Party in the U.S. are racists. They deliberately favor nonwhite groups over whites at every turn. In the U.S., they celebrate whites becoming a minority by 2040, and in Europe, the German leadership is openly going to the opposite extreme of Hitler in being anti-white. The universalist and egalitarian denunciations of racism are a mask for targeting white Christian identity.

This question overshadows everything else. So when you make a completely rational assessment of the Eurozone as an "unaccountable bureaucracy," this doesn't even matter. The left in both Europe and America see the EU as the administrative force for reconstructing demographic patterns and all traditional identities. It is a moral question to them.

Most normal people around the world over the centuries, whether they are white or non-white, don't "hate" foreigners the way the left tries to describe. Most Indians love India and want it to remain majority Indian. Most Poles love Poland and want it to remain majority Polish. This is not because they are race-conscious but because they self-identify with distinct cultural groups. This is part of what makes the world rich and diverse and interesting. If everyone went their own way and minded their own business, we could avoid a lot of problems. But the EU leaders as well as the ruling class of the U.S. are revolutionaries. They will only go down through humiliation or seeing their worldview implode before their eyes. There is no other option for totalitarians.

The current EU leadership is as insane as Hitler. You cannot communicate with such people. They are trying to pull off demonic revolutions at all costs and will not stop until they lose the power that allows them to continue trying to bring the revolutions about.

Thinking of your original post and the American view of Brexit, the same applies vice versa with Trump. The whole media focuses on one issue - that Trump is just a racist with nothing to offer.

 

[Federberg]

Racist how and against who?

Against immigrants. It's been in the news here. Claims that abuse and confrontations are on the rise. Nothing too bad thankfully

 

[britbox]

Interesting times for the Labour Party... I believe Corbyn being in the ballot paper is being challenged in the courts as he didn't have the required number of MPs willing to nominate him. I know a few Momentum campaigners (Corbyn advocates) and the party has a major crisis on it's hands. The members want to overwhelmingly pick Corbyn and the MPs don't want him. What gives? Will be interesting to see how this plays out....

 

[Federberg]

Interesting times for the Labour Party... I believe Corbyn being in the ballot paper is being challenged in the courts as he didn't have the required number of MPs willing to nominate him. I know a few Momentum campaigners (Corbyn advocates) and the party has a major crisis on it's hands. The members want to overwhelmingly pick Corbyn and the MPs don't want him. What gives? Will be interesting to see how this plays out....

I think Corbyn has defeated that challenge...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-off-court-challenge-labour-leadership-ballot

 

[Mary]

It will be interesting to see!
These problems are not new - we have had coups and splits in the party before and there is a built in tension between the PLP and the Labour Party itself. Several things have brought it to a head.
Blair and new Labour were ultimately a disaster for the party moving it too far right for the grass roots membership to stomach. Then last year ordinary members got voting rights - shock horror for the PLP who think they run the party. Corbyn got a huge majority but from the outset the PLP opposed him and
there is strong evidence of the coup starting then - they were waiting for an opportunity to challenge.

I think the PLP plotters have behaved appallingly. There is of course a right to challenge the party leader but the timing and methods used have been disgusting and the anger of the party membership including unions cannot be overstated. The smears and lies and viciousness directed at Corbyn, his supporters in parliament and Momentum are hard to believe. In addition the bias of the MSM including the BBC is frightening. There are a couple of reputable research projects covering this bias at present and several petitions going on concerned with the need for objective reporting. Any one wanting to understand what is happening won't get it from the main newspapers or the BBC - there are alot of links on Twitter and I am touch with a few friends close to the action.

I am convinced Smith has just been set up. He has an appalling record for a Labour MP, says some incredibly stupid things. Every time he opens his mouth another foot goes in! And there seem to be links between him and Foster who lost the court case yesterday. A case which never had a chance as the rules were changed to require nominations only from challengers some time ago. Foster has to pay costs and not allowed to appeal.

As to what will happen it is evident that Corbyn will win unless the PLP has more dirty tricks to get him off the ballot. He has massive public and Union support and the CLPs so far are over 80% in favour of him. Possibly it won't even come to a vote. Then it gets interesting. My guess is some of the PLP will then back him. There are rumours that some were bullied in to resigning and Sarah Champion has already come back. Some may be deselected - top of the list for that are Eagle, Benn and Kinnock. I would love to see Connor McGinn go! Personally I think there needs to be a split, the differences in ideology are too wide for one party. The split could well happen this autumn. Jeremy's hopes might be in some kind of alliance - Green,SNP who knows.
I didn't vote for him last time but I will this time. I would never vote for one of the Chicken Coup or a Blairite. If the party splits so be it. I would rather vote for what I want and not get it than vote for what I don't want and get it! I have reservations though. Jeremy has always been a rebel - great causes, great principles and my god what guts and dignity he has shown this last few months. But I am not sure he can work his best within a system - he is most effective outside it. There are some interesting people coming through now though - Burgon,Thornberry, Lewis have all impressed me the last few weeks. And the Executive Council elections are likely to show a leftist shift next month which will strengthen his position.

Worst scenario I think is a other disruptive leadership challenge and more lies and plotting, such a waste of energy and resources. I hope that can be avoided by deselection if all else fails.

There that's my take on it - the view of one of the Trots/rabble/dogs as the PLP call us!

 

[Federberg]

^thanks for that Mary. Very interesting. I think the party has to split. Sadly I don't think that the views espoused by the Labour Party as differentiated from the PLP have much appeal to the wider electorate. I'm a little confused by the aspirations of Corbynites, they surely know they'll never get power, what's the endgame for them?

 

[Mary]

^thanks for that Mary. Very interesting. I think the party has to split. Sadly I don't think that the views espoused by the Labour Party as differentiated from the PLP have much appeal to the wider electorate. I'm a little confused by the aspirations of Corbynites, they surely know they'll never get power, what's the endgame for them?

They want democratic control of their own party. This is about the party membership being ridden roughshod by the PLP. It's also about the hypocrisy of some labour MPs and their voting records and general attitude and insulting language to members. The membership want to see Labour policies true to the principles the party was founded on. Corbyns principles are not even that far left, in Wilson's time he would have been seen as a moderate.
As it is under Blair Brown Miliband we lost 3 million votes and 2 general elections. Nothing to lose now. I think we could get power though not yet a while. There is so much dissatisfaction and they are harnessing it. We now have more members than all the other parties put together and are the largest socialist party in Europe. And we've a tradition of voting a government out rather than in.
Did you see anything about the rally in York last night? Huge numbers in the pictures, absolutely massive, I've never seen anything like it. All ages, races, not thugs. I think it's Leeds today and Liverpool Monday. And it's not even a general election - just the leadership of an opposition party.

 

[Federberg]

^Yes I saw. But do you think Corbyn, or someone like him could win an election with those views? Is there any desire to be electable was what I was asking

 

[Mary]

^Yes I saw. But do you think Corbyn, or someone like him could win an election with those views? Is there any desire to be electable was what I was asking

They would never be electable with Blairite views but with genuine centrist socialism I think it's possible, yes. The numbers are there certainly but I don't know how the boundary changes will impact.
I have never ever seen attendance like this and support like this for any politician. Last night in Leeds the venue was full and he had to speak twice, inside and outside. Liverpool next and that well be massive. And there is nothing loony left in his policies when analysed. He doesn't want Trident - neither do 90% of population. Protect NHS most would agree. Renationalise rail - most commuters are adamant that private companies have totally failed. There is a lot of support for the key policies.

I think the thing many party members have learned from Blair is that to have power without the right underpinning ideology is a disaster. Time will tell if that will mean we are a party of protest but even in opposition we can be a significant political force.In the mean time he needs to win this leadership and either get the PLP hard core right sorted. I think the CLPs will certainly deselect some of them.

How are things with you? Is the Brexit uncertainty having an impact on your business? Hope all is well for you.

 

[Federberg]

^That's interesting. I've always thought that England is primarily a conservative country, in comparison to Wales and Scotland. It seems to me that the only hope for Labour is to somehow win back seats from the SNP, but that seems unlikely.

Brexit has been difficult for my business. Initially there was a big hit from Brexit as corporates that import were hit by the higher import costs that they were faced with. But as with anything it just takes time to get used to new realities, so things are trending back to what it was before, although we're not quite there yet. Thanks for asking

 

[Mary]

^That's interesting. I've always thought that England is primarily a conservative country, in comparison to Wales and Scotland. It seems to me that the only hope for Labour is to somehow win back seats from the SNP, but that seems unlikely.

Brexit has been difficult for my business. Initially there was a big hit from Brexit as corporates that import were hit by the higher import costs that they were faced with. But as with anything it just takes time to get used to new realities, so things are trending back to what it was before, although we're not quite there yet. Thanks for asking

I don't think the North is conservative but then I come from a very left wing North Eastern background with a grandfather who was on the Jarrow March. I agree we need something to change in Scotland though.

Who said we live in interesting times!!

Glad business is holding on ok.Take care, M