Travelling through time to play Tilden and the likes

Alien

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
43
Reactions
1
Points
6
I have posted a similar thread at TT and I am being hit hard, but I insist here:

 

A small group of 4.5 / 5 2015 players take a time machine (few of them as the machine is small) and goes back to 1930-1940. We carry our tennis bags with 2015 racquets, poly trings, dri fit clothes (not that it matters), light tennis shoes. We get into a hard court tournament or the French championships (grass is too weird for a 2015 player). [We play in between our coming and going to betting houses or trying to invest in the Bourse with the scarce data we remember from that decade]

So you face first time those players as they are on these videos. Would we get a GS?

Tilden´s video is sped up but Budge´s is not and they are clearly not scary. Serves are normal but indeed the foot on the ground is limiting. Backhands are horrible, no power at all without the help of the other hand. Tilden even slices some forehands. That continental grip is a killer. They saved energy and hit weakly with placement until the 70s I would say, whereas we now hit as strongly as we can but applying topspin to the ball. They even walk on the court instead of running.

One thing is clear: we find Big Bill with a ball boy and we beat the hell out of him.
https://youtu.be/gAM-ZgEHEZs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8eEfjxDeHM

https://youtu.be/a8jhKS-yMCs

Just read that Jean Borotra, one of the French Mousquetaires, a Wimbledon champion twice, 5 GSs (19 if doubles are included, which by the time were as important as singles) and competitor of Bill Tilden:
- Only played during weekends and tournaments.
- he took up tennis seriously at 21 years old
- Won Wimbledon for his first time only after having played tennis for 6 years in 1924.

Any 5.0 plays more than that per week and has played far longer than that. I think modern technique, training and racquets would compensate more than enough.

What do you guys think ? Please dont start with "give them the modern racquets and techniques and...". That is a different speculation. I say any of us, 4.5 or 5.0 of 2015 against those guys exactly as they look in the videos, with their long trousers and those racquets. On hard or clay (nobody plays on grass anymore). Who wins ?

Tilden vs Vines. This one seems not sped up.

https://youtu.be/Yl8Hl9NWDqk
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,509
Reactions
6,341
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
Interesting topic.  Just to clarify... the 5 player is playing with modern gear, not wood... and the old vet is playing with wood?
 

Alien

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
43
Reactions
1
Points
6
Yes indeed.

We play modern gear. They play in their old gear, including those ridiculous long trousers, heavy shoes (guessing), etc.

We dont play on grass.

Before arguing just based on famous names ("they would rape you apart"), I recommend checking the videos.
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,509
Reactions
6,341
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
Interesting but I'll go with the modern day 5.0 in that scenario.  Maybe upto Pancho (Gonzalez)... even Connors said he was the best player he knocked around with and Pancho must have been a geriatric when he was hitting with Jimbo. You think you could take Kramer buddy?
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,509
Reactions
6,341
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
<cite>@Alien said:</cite>
Yes indeed.

We play modern gear. They play in their old gear, including those ridiculous long trousers, heavy shoes (guessing), etc.

We dont play on grass.

Before arguing just based on famous names ("they would rape you apart"), I recommend checking the videos.
Do they smoke at changeovers?  :wacko:
 

Alien

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
43
Reactions
1
Points
6
 

Amazingly, I wrote the same. I think we win until Pancho. I saw him playing in youtube and he indeed starts to hit like we do now with of course much more physical ability. So we cannot really compensate with modern techniques I guess.

However I have checked Jack Kramer after your comment. For the moment I think he looks too good, trying to make an opinion.

 

There is an interesting post from someone there:

"I decided to ask my dad who knows the era much better than I do. He lost to Ham Richardson 6-1, 6-1. To put it in perspective that's like losing to Andy Murray 6-1, 6-1. He also is a national champion in doubles. He watched people like Hode and Gonzalez play in person who were already better than the guys in the videos bc of the level that tennis had already risen to since the 40s. Coming from someone who witnessed tennis 1 decade after these videos he told me the racquets were so heavy back then that they wouldn't have time to maneuver properly for the speed and spin of today's shots and serves. He also said it wasn't until the mid 50s when tennis hit a noticeably higher level that these players were finally the equivalent of a strong 4.5-5.0 player. "

 

 
 

Alien

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
43
Reactions
1
Points
6
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/rate-these-guys.545513/

Alien as well, so not to get confused lol.

My post here is a copy paste of several I wrote there.
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,509
Reactions
6,341
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
@Alien,

How do you think a fit 50 year old McEnroe with all modern gear would fare against the 1980 McEnroe with a wooden stick?
 

Alien

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
43
Reactions
1
Points
6
Difficult wonderful question. I have seen much of McE in the Senior tour. But I see he keeps being fit and he have always had an easy tennis. He never trained much, not sure these days. He probably hits harder now with new racquets and all. Can that compensate for his (to be seen) loss of agility?
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,509
Reactions
6,341
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
I think the McEnroe from 5 or 6 years ago when he was pushing 50 and beating some of the new additions to the seniors tour who had only fairly recently retired from the ATP tennis would take out the 1980 version assuming they were using a wooden stick
 

Alien

Junior Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2013
Messages
43
Reactions
1
Points
6
Sorry I meant I have NOT seen much of McE in the Senior tour. That would be a solid indication indeed. In 2005 Spadea said that he could train with him as with any other pro.
 

teddytennisfan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
3,166
Reactions
498
Points
113
mcenroe is just amazing - his career and natural talent. of course age creeps up on him like evertone and anything.

 

but that he still displays his famed abilities is just amazing.
 

teddytennisfan

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Oct 1, 2015
Messages
3,166
Reactions
498
Points
113
i agree with you on this.

a lot of course is different now -- and much has been based on the elements surrounding the development of players : the fitness in particular in terms of what makes tennis today more ''physical'' as they say.

 

but i think that if these were available to the past players - at least of a minimum  physical stature and qualifications - height, reach, - to be close enough to the generally taller norms today -- the SKILLS set of many past players would do very well against today's. ..at the very least.

 
 

britbox

Multiple Major Winner
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
27,509
Reactions
6,341
Points
113
Location
Gold Coast, Australia
@teddytennisfan From a time lord perspective, it would also be interesting to see how modern day players fared in the very different environment of yesteryear.

We tend to always put the old guys in the modern era when making comparisons rather than the other way around.