Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

[Kirijax]

Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Simon Briggs of The Telegraph just put out his list for the top 20 male clay-court players of all time. Agree or disagree? I think he put my all-time favorite a bit low, and some one-time French Open winners are ranked above multiple winners, but this is not just the French Open but for all clay tournaments so it's pretty interesting to see. Agree or disagree?

Top 20 male clay-court players of all time

 

[Federberg]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

The rankings within that list are a joke. Federer - a RG winner - is also a what.. 4 or 5 time runner up at Roland Garros? And he gets ranked that low? Obviously all the guys who've had the misfortune of playing in the Nadal era are going to suffer, but a least look at how many times they've contested finals against him. A little common sense goes a long way.. :nono

I also think it's dumb to put Courier so low. I bet he played as few clay court tournaments as he could (can't quite recall), but a 2 time winner being ranked so far below is bizarre. With all due respect to Novak I'm not sure he's quite surpassed Roger's cv on clay. Although he's one that I'll concede should do it eventually.

 

[shawnbm]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

I agree with the top three, but would put Courier, Guga and Federer higher, as well as Bruguera. Nole should not be ahead of Nastase, Federer and Bruguera yet.

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

1- Nadal
2- Borg
3- Who cares?

Honestly.

(This is obviously not directed at the OP).

 

[Billie]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

The rankings within that list are a joke. Federer - a RG winner - is also a what.. 4 or 5 time runner up at Roland Garros? And he gets ranked that low? Obviously all the guys who've had the misfortune of playing in the Nadal era are going to suffer, but a least look at how many times they've contested finals against him. A little common sense goes a long way.. :nono

I also think it's dumb to put Courier so low. I bet he played as few clay court tournaments as he could (can't quite recall), but a 2 time winner being ranked so far below is bizarre. With all due respect to Novak I'm not sure he's quite surpassed Roger's cv on clay. Although he's one that I'll concede should do it eventually.

Does it really matter that much if a player loses to Nadal in semi finals or finals? Nole was unfortunate to be in his half for so many times and a couple of times where he didn't have to face him earlier, met him in the final. Nole also has 2 MC, 4 Rome and 1 Madrid titles - all Masters 1000 events which are not easy to win (and especially during Rafa's reign) and he did beat Rafa in few of them. He also has some Masters 1000 finals that he lost to Rafa.

I don't know what your measuring stick is, maybe for some it is how well they do against the best ever on this surface, which Nole has done fairly well throughout his career and better than any other player that competed in Rafa's era. Also said Masters titles probably have something to do with the rankings.

 

[Front242]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

The rankings within that list are a joke. Federer - a RG winner - is also a what.. 4 or 5 time runner up at Roland Garros? And he gets ranked that low? Obviously all the guys who've had the misfortune of playing in the Nadal era are going to suffer, but a least look at how many times they've contested finals against him. A little common sense goes a long way.. :nono

I also think it's dumb to put Courier so low. I bet he played as few clay court tournaments as he could (can't quite recall), but a 2 time winner being ranked so far below is bizarre. With all due respect to Novak I'm not sure he's quite surpassed Roger's cv on clay. Although he's one that I'll concede should do it eventually.

Does it really matter that much if a player loses to Nadal in semi finals or finals? Nole was unfortunate to be in his half for so many times and a couple of times where he didn't have to face him earlier, met him in the final. Nole also has 2 MC, 4 Rome and 1 Madrid titles - all Masters 1000 events which are not easy to win (and especially during Rafa's reign) and he did beat Rafa in few of them. He also has some Masters 1000 finals that he lost to Rafa.

I don't know what your measuring stick is, maybe for some it is how well they do against the best ever on this surface, which Nole has done fairly well throughout his career and better than any other player that competed in Rafa's era. Also said Masters titles probably have something to do with the rankings.

Except Soderling when it comes to the big one: Roland Garros Also, don't forget Federer had 2 match points back in Rome 2006 when the format there was best of 5. Novak never got to match point in best of 5 on clay against Nadal.

 

[Billie]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Big deal...Federer once had match points against Rafa....that is your achievement?:ras:

Just be happy for Soderling. BTW, did you read his predictions? He is itching for somebody to beat Rafa so that he is not always asked about that match.

 

[Fiero425]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Big deal...Federer once had match points against Rafa....that is your achievement?:ras:

Just be happy for Soderling. BTW, did you read his predictions? He is itching for somebody to beat Rafa so that he is not always asked about that match.

Funny, way back when, it was the same thing for Adriano Panatta who was the only person to beat Borg at the French Open; actually doing it twice ('73 & '76)! :nono :eyepop :cover

 

[Billie]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Big deal...Federer once had match points against Rafa....that is your achievement?:ras:

Just be happy for Soderling. BTW, did you read his predictions? He is itching for somebody to beat Rafa so that he is not always asked about that match.

Funny, way back when, it was the same thing for Adriano Panatta who was the only person to beat Borg at the French Open; actually doing it twice ('73 & '76)! :nono :eyepop :cover

I read it translated in Serbian so I don't know where the original is...but I kind of see Robin's point: he says where ever he goes everybody is asking him about that famous match. He says it's not fair to his other achievements. I believe him.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

The rankings within that list are a joke. Federer - a RG winner - is also a what.. 4 or 5 time runner up at Roland Garros? And he gets ranked that low? Obviously all the guys who've had the misfortune of playing in the Nadal era are going to suffer, but a least look at how many times they've contested finals against him. A little common sense goes a long way.. :nono

I also think it's dumb to put Courier so low. I bet he played as few clay court tournaments as he could (can't quite recall), but a 2 time winner being ranked so far below is bizarre. With all due respect to Novak I'm not sure he's quite surpassed Roger's cv on clay. Although he's one that I'll concede should do it eventually.

Does it really matter that much if a player loses to Nadal in semi finals or finals? Nole was unfortunate to be in his half for so many times and a couple of times where he didn't have to face him earlier, met him in the final. Nole also has 2 MC, 4 Rome and 1 Madrid titles - all Masters 1000 events which are not easy to win (and especially during Rafa's reign) and he did beat Rafa in few of them. He also has some Masters 1000 finals that he lost to Rafa.

I don't know what your measuring stick is, maybe for some it is how well they do against the best ever on this surface, which Nole has done fairly well throughout his career and better than any other player that competed in Rafa's era. Also said Masters titles probably have something to do with the rankings.

The main measuring stick is RG. Nole is not a great clay court player until he wins RG (if he does). MS events are nice but that's the regular season, majors are postseason and mainly what decides legacies.
So anyone without an RG probably shouldn't even be on the list.

 

[Billie]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

^^^^ Darth, I knew you would reply like that.

Too bad there wasn't another Soderling-like heroic act to help Nole out at least once.

Anyway, it's OK, I respect your opinion, but there are some of us who disagree, obviously. So Nole needs to win 1 RG crown and will you proclaim him better than Rog on clay?

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

^ Yes I think all things considered he'd be slightly ahead of Roger on clay with 1 RG. That's where the fact he's gone through Nadal and won all 3 of the MS clay events would serve as tiebreaks IMO.

 

[Billie]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

^ Yes I think all things considered he'd be slightly ahead of Roger on clay with 1 RG. That's where the fact he's gone through Nadal and won all 3 of the MS clay events would serve as tiebreaks IMO.

Darth, I expected a little bit more fireworks here, back and forth, you know....:lolz::angel::hug

 

[DarthFed]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

On occasion I do just call it how I see it. Only thing Roger would have in his favor is a couple extra RG finals and you know I don't put much stock in those dinner plates for 2nd place.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Big deal...Federer once had match points against Rafa....that is your achievement?:ras:

Just be happy for Soderling. BTW, did you read his predictions? He is itching for somebody to beat Rafa so that he is not always asked about that match.

Funny, way back when, it was the same thing for Adriano Panatta who was the only person to beat Borg at the French Open; actually doing it twice ('73 & '76)! :nono :eyepop :cover

I read it translated in Serbian so I don't know where the original is...but I kind of see Robin's point: he says where ever he goes everybody is asking him about that famous match. He says it's not fair to his other achievements. I believe him.

In fairness, I can just imagine how much Soderling is ready to stop being asked about Nadal. It's not the least surprising he's rooting for Djokovic to be the 'other guy' in that lonely room. Or anyone, probably. I'll let the rest of you get back to arguing the relative places of Roger and Novak on this list now....

 

[Kirijax]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Agree with a lot everyone is saying, but don't forget this is not a greatest French Open champions list. It's a clay court list.

 

[Federberg]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

^That's a fair point Kirijax. But Novak has not done enough on clay... period.... to justify that position yet. By the end of his career this will be a non discussion I'm sure (I fervently hope!). But not yet. As for DF's comment about runner up? We all know how he feels! Roger was the 2nd best on clay for years, in an era with the most dominant clay courter ever. That counts for something in my view. It's not even really about Novak, it's about some of the others ahead of him on the list... it's a joke. And I know there are fan boys out there, for me it's not about that. There is clearly selection bias by the journalist. The British media say a lot of absurd things if you follow them closely you'll know what I mean. Anyway ultimately this is puerile, and I do agree with BS... it's Nadal then Borg, the rest is largely irrelevant! Anyway, moving on.. I'm just looking forward to RG. Allez!

 

[Kirijax]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

^That's a fair point Kirijax. But Novak has not done enough on clay... period.... to justify that position yet. By the end of his career this will be a non discussion I'm sure (I fervently hope!). But not yet. As for DF's comment about runner up? We all know how he feels! Roger was the 2nd best on clay for years, in an era with the most dominant clay courter ever. That counts for something in my view. It's not even really about Novak, it's about some of the others ahead of him on the list... it's a joke. And I know there are fan boys out there, for me it's not about that. There is clearly selection bias by the journalist. The British media say a lot of absurd things if you follow them closely you'll know what I mean. Anyway ultimately this is puerile, and I do agree with BS... it's Nadal then Borg, the rest is largely irrelevant! Anyway, moving on.. I'm just looking forward to RG. Allez!

I agree what you say about Djokovic. He shouldn't even be on the list or if he was, way at the bottom. He should move up nicely in a couple weeks, maybe?

But what's this about everything being irrelevant after Nadal and Borg? That's no fun!

 

[Federberg]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

^That's a fair point Kirijax. But Novak has not done enough on clay... period.... to justify that position yet. By the end of his career this will be a non discussion I'm sure (I fervently hope!). But not yet. As for DF's comment about runner up? We all know how he feels! Roger was the 2nd best on clay for years, in an era with the most dominant clay courter ever. That counts for something in my view. It's not even really about Novak, it's about some of the others ahead of him on the list... it's a joke. And I know there are fan boys out there, for me it's not about that. There is clearly selection bias by the journalist. The British media say a lot of absurd things if you follow them closely you'll know what I mean. Anyway ultimately this is puerile, and I do agree with BS... it's Nadal then Borg, the rest is largely irrelevant! Anyway, moving on.. I'm just looking forward to RG. Allez!

I agree what you say about Djokovic. He shouldn't even be on the list or if he was, way at the bottom. He should move up nicely in a couple weeks, maybe?

But what's this about everything being irrelevant after Nadal and Borg? That's no fun!

Well... it's just shuffling pieces after those two. Besides I'm keen to see what happens this year. If Roger doesn't win, I'll be more than happy to see Novak win

 

[britbox]

RE: Top 20 Ｍale Ｃlay-Ｃourt Ｐlayers of Ａll Ｔime

Muster is too high... Sure he was a clay dog following his accident, but he had one superb year and a couple of decent ones on the dirt... when playing the dirt was pretty much all he committed too. Even Edberg was 4-0 against Muster on clay. Muster should be ranked outside the Top 10.

Vilas... #3 Really? Sure he was great on clay but he also picked his moments and his streaks. The year of his amazing streak he pretty much avoided Borg altogether... choosing to play rinky dink tournaments in North America. I'd have Vilas somewhere outside the Top 5 at least.

Panatta should be higher.