Supremely gifted, but...

[Kieran]

Brother Nehmeth posed a question on the Buenos Aires thread:

"Why is it that some of the most talented players are so tragically flawed between the ears?"

It's rightly phrased, by the way: they're "tragically flawed." This is relative to real life, but these are guys who make the impossible shots seem abnormally simple, natural beyond measure, but their otherworldly technical gifts are let down by the mental side of things (to put it politely!).

Let's list just a few examples:

Nastase (the GLOAT? Greatest Lunatic of All-Time)
McEnroe (er...the GLOAT?)
Mecir (the Big Cat of immense talent, but mentally not tough)
Nalbandian (Cali can explain)

These are just examples. Players who have far more natural ability than any man can possibly safely handle. In fairness, Mac won seven slams and is properly feted as one of the genuinely greatest players - and champions - of all time.

But what is it about supremely gifted players, that the mind isn't constant enough for them to reap the titles their talent deserves? Is it that they have so many options - shot-wise - that it fuddles their senses? Or does having so great an imaginative range of shot destabilise them emotionally?

Or are there even more "normally gifted" players who are equally unreliable, but their gifts aren't great enough to raise them into view?

Who's your favourite flawed hero?

By the way, Nehmeth was referring to 3F, a classic example of the guy who blazes triumphantly when in flow - but not for long enough... :nono

 

[Federberg]

If we're to say that Mac had a mental flaw, and I'm assuming it's the tantrums?, I would say that it didn't really impede his play. I think of him as one of the mentally toughest players of his generation. I think his main problem was laziness. I'll always remember Wilander acknowledging that in terms of talent he wasn't worthy of being discussed in the same sentence as Mac, but he was utterly contemptuous of Mac's application. He said something like, if Mac had worked even half as hard as he did, he would have been almost untouchable.

But I do agree with your general premise. Most of these guys are flaky. Rios would be another one to add to the list

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Brother Nehmeth posed a question on the Buenos Aires thread:

"Why is it that some of the most talented players are so tragically flawed between the ears?"

It's rightly phrased, by the way: they're "tragically flawed." This is relative to real life, but these are guys who make the impossible shots seem abnormally simple, natural beyond measure, but their otherworldly technical gifts are let down by the mental side of things (to put it politely!).

Let's list just a few examples:

Nastase (the GLOAT? Greatest Lunatic of All-Time)
McEnroe (er...the GLOAT?)
Mecir (the Big Cat of immense talent, but mentally not tough)
Nalbandian (Cali can explain)

These are just examples. Players who have far more natural ability than any man can possibly safely handle. In fairness, Mac won seven slams and is properly feted as one of the genuinely greatest players - and champions - of all time.

But what is it about supremely gifted players, that the mind isn't constant enough for them to reap the titles their talent deserves? Is it that they have so many options - shot-wise - that it fuddles their senses? Or does having so great an imaginative range of shot destabilise them emotionally?

Or are there even more "normally gifted" players who are equally unreliable, but their gifts aren't great enough to raise them into view?

Who's your favourite flawed hero?

By the way, Nehmeth was referring to 3F, a classic example of the guy who blazes triumphantly when in flow - but not for long enough... :nono

Oh geez, there are so many to choose from...

First, of all, I think we need to make it clear that the mental aspect of the game IS a GIFT, just as the physical part is. A very precious few over the the course of the last 40 years have had the ability to:

-conquer nerves

-completely block out distractions

-be single minded to the point of denying them selves normal parts of life. Total sacrifice

-be clear and committed to a style of play, regardless

-have total and utter belief

And MAC is hardly tragic with 7 slams in a very tough era. He was a POS, and not a very
nice person, and it cost him the French Open, that is it. Otherwise he was as mentally tough as
you will ever see.

Ok, my choices-

-Leconte

-Goran

-Mark PhiliScud

-Noah

-Safin

The New Breed:

Tsonga,
Monfils
Fognini (until recently)

 

[Kieran]

The thing with Mac is, he was much more gifted than anyone else who played him - but he won less than Lendl. Borg, even the great Borg!, didn't have Mac's innateness with the ball. But as I say, he's properly respected as a great in all areas. He just also might be the biggest loon who ever set foot on court, though I've come to see a lot of his antics as being cynicism (the generous view) or cheating (perhaps closer to the mark, or maybe too strong).

Safin is a good call!

Likewise, I agree, to be mentally tough is a natural gift: it's not so easy to learn, although Novak is a guy who has acquired those gifts of mental strength, however briefly or sporadically they occur...

 

[shawnbm]

Mac was so talented he did not even put in that much practice during his glory years--totally unlike Federer, Nadal, Nole, Sampras and--in his era--Lendl and Borg. He would go out partying and play hte next day. He knew he was good enough to beat just about anyone no matter how well they played, for he was always the attacker--he forced others to play him at his game. But then Lendl, graphite and the power game came in and Mac could not withstand the heavier balls with pace--not even with his skills. He faded quickly after 1984 and bigger guys with bigger games took over and still dominate today. He became a poster child for the way the game used to be very well played. His talent was immense; he could hit winners from the most unlikely places and his volleying was of the very highest order. I think he got a lot out of talent, but could have gotten more if he trained harder and did not let Tatum and the lifestyle seep into his tennis life.

As for others, I will likely always have Safin at the top--so much there. It is painful to recall, really. Just re-watch Samrpras and Safin from 2000 US Open or Safin and Federer five years later in Australia. My God he was something--those are of the highest quality matches (through and through) you will ever see.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

The thing with Mac is, he was much more gifted than anyone else who played him - but he won less than Lendl. Borg, even the great Borg!, didn't have Mac's innateness with the ball. But as I say, he's properly respected as a great in all areas. He just also might be the biggest loon who ever set foot on court, though I've come to see a lot of his antics as being cynicism (the generous view) or cheating (perhaps closer to the mark, or maybe too strong).

Safin is a good call!

Likewise, I agree, to be mentally tough is a natural gift: it's not so easy to learn, although Novak is a guy who has acquired those gifts of mental strength, however briefly or sporadically they occur...

Novak had the mental toughness since day 1. His body would not allow him to use it.

His book was a quick and good read and talks about this.

 

[Kieran]

I think Nole is brittle, actually, but in 2011 he became Kryptonite, which has endured - on and off - since then.

Just noticed on the list all those French men: Leconte, Noah, Tsonga, Monfils.

Don't tell mon frere J-B, but these are the guys I detest most in the whole world! :devil :emperor:

 

[Kieran]

EDIT: Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired...

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I think Nole is brittle, actually, but in 2011 he became Kryptonite, which has endured - on and off - since then.

Just noticed on the list all those French men: Leconte, Noah, Tsonga, Monfils.

Don't tell mon frere J-B, but these are the guys I detest most in the whole world! :devil :emperor:

There are plenty of non French..Ferndando Gonzalez...Coria, how about even Cilic up until last year..

Let me throw in Jerzey Boy!

 

[Luxilon Borg]

EDIT: Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired...

We totally disagree on that. And so do the top 4. Novak specifically said in his book Tsonga was supremely gifted.

There are plenty of "big guys who play a flamboyant" way who have never beaten top 10 players, and have never been to slam semis and finals.

 

[Kieran]

EDIT: Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired...

We totally disagree on that. And so do the top 4. Novak specifically said in his book Tsonga was supremely gifted.

There are plenty of "big guys who play a flamboyant" way who have never beaten top 10 players, and have never been to slam semis and finals.

Tsonga is no tennis genius of the school of Nastase, Mac, Nalbandian, the Big Cat. The ball doesn't go whizzing into the impossible because of Tsonga. He's "supremely gifted" relative to many people, but he's never been a guy who made anyone sit up and go, "did ye just see...sheesh....look at what he done!" :nono

 

[Luxilon Borg]

EDIT: Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired...

We totally disagree on that. And so do the top 4. Novak specifically said in his book Tsonga was supremely gifted.

There are plenty of "big guys who play a flamboyant" way who have never beaten top 10 players, and have never been to slam semis and finals.

Tsonga is no tennis genius of the school of Nastase, Mac, Nalbandian, the Big Cat. The ball doesn't go whizzing into the impossible because of Tsonga. He's "supremely gifted" relative to many people, but he's never been a guy who made anyone sit up and go, "did ye just see...sheesh....look at what he done!" :nono

Again, totally disagree. He is NOT as gifted as Nasty, Mac, or Fed, but sheesh, who is????

He one of the few players that creates hi lite reels consistently outside of the usual suspects.

 

[Kieran]

Again, totally disagree. He is NOT as gifted as Nasty, Mac, or Fed, but sheesh, who is????

These are the types I'm talking about, my friend, the guys who do ridiculous things and make us gasp while we drool. I'm glad you mentioned Federer, by the way - he's often done things in a rally that NASA have described as gravitationally improbable.

However - he's mentally sound too, so he's disqualified from being the GLOAT!

 

[Luxilon Borg]

EDIT: Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired...

We totally disagree on that. And so do the top 4. Novak specifically said in his book Tsonga was supremely gifted.

There are plenty of "big guys who play a flamboyant" way who have never beaten top 10 players, and have never been to slam semis and finals.

Tsonga is no tennis genius of the school of Nastase, Mac, Nalbandian, the Big Cat. The ball doesn't go whizzing into the impossible because of Tsonga. He's "supremely gifted" relative to many people, but he's never been a guy who made anyone sit up and go, "did ye just see...sheesh....look at what he done!" :nono

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQeX1Fh3S6w

Enjoy!

 

[nehmeth]

My 2 favorite flawed heroes:

Safin
Ivanisevic

Safin did win 2 slams, but combine his talent level with even a mildly stable emotional make-up and he could have been dominant.

I remember first seeing Ivanisevic in 1987 on clay, the kid had the tools along with a big serve. But when the pressure was on, he would crumble.

While Novak has had more success than the both of them put together, outside of his 2011 year, in the bigger matches he's been brittle and quite often the first one to blink.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Brother Nehmeth posed a question on the Buenos Aires thread:

"Why is it that some of the most talented players are so tragically flawed between the ears?"

It's rightly phrased, by the way: they're "tragically flawed." This is relative to real life, but these are guys who make the impossible shots seem abnormally simple, natural beyond measure, but their otherworldly technical gifts are let down by the mental side of things (to put it politely!).

Let's list just a few examples:

Nastase (the GLOAT? Greatest Lunatic of All-Time)
McEnroe (er...the GLOAT?)
Mecir (the Big Cat of immense talent, but mentally not tough)
Nalbandian (Cali can explain)

These are just examples. Players who have far more natural ability than any man can possibly safely handle. In fairness, Mac won seven slams and is properly feted as one of the genuinely greatest players - and champions - of all time.

But what is it about supremely gifted players, that the mind isn't constant enough for them to reap the titles their talent deserves? Is it that they have so many options - shot-wise - that it fuddles their senses? Or does having so great an imaginative range of shot destabilise them emotionally?

Or are there even more "normally gifted" players who are equally unreliable, but their gifts aren't great enough to raise them into view?

Who's your favourite flawed hero?

By the way, Nehmeth was referring to 3F, a classic example of the guy who blazes triumphantly when in flow - but not for long enough... :nono

Dear Lord how can we forget Marcelo Rios!!!!!! Maybe top of the list?

 

[Kieran]

Rios - went AWOL against Korda in his only slam final. Looked a cinch at one stage to win Paris, never got beyond the quarters, far as I know. He was a naturally gifted guy, a bit small but he got good results on hards, and repeated Lendl's slur that grass is for cows.

But yeah, mentally he wasn't all there... :nono

 

[Moxie]

First, of all, I think we need to make it clear that the mental aspect of the game IS a GIFT, just as the physical part is.

^This.

 

[nehmeth]

First, of all, I think we need to make it clear that the mental aspect of the game IS a GIFT, just as the physical part is.

^This.

In a way this is similar to "nurture vs. nature". While I happen to believe it's both, in this case I tend to believe nurture plays a greater role.

 

[shawnbm]

The mental aspect is likewise a gift. The best I ever saw regardless of the moment was Borg--he was unflappable and able to hit amazing shots at the big moments. Along with him come Nadal and Federer and Sampras--all three are very good in the big moments and you don't win that often and for that long without mental stamina. Roger has come from two sets down more than probably anyone (at least eight times--but Borg may have done it nine times) and Borg and Rafa's record in five setters is well established. Pete was slick and lied in wait until the big moment in the set and would then turn it up a notch and it was over. Of late, Nadal has hit some shots at big moments that were stupefying. That innate self-confidence even when things are tight is a gift.