Renting space in an opponents head, the match up issue...

[Federberg]

I posted this in another thread, but thought it was worth discussion in it's own thread....

"I really think that, these last 2 matches Novak and Rafa have played, highlights something that should be painfully clear to everyone... Novak is in Rafa's head as painfully as Rafa was ever in Roger's head. This presents a legacy challenge for him now. Can he turn it around again? I won't count him out, but for now Novak could play him in a wheelchair and it's not clear to me that Rafa finds a solution. Such is the nature of mental blocks"

These two match ups are the most storied but obviously there are a multiple of others, not least Safin - Santoro. It would be interesting to hear of other match ups where match ups/ mental blocks work in one player's favour. And the successes the disadvantaged player has had in turning things around.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Novak has so much money that instead of renting space in Ralphs head, he might even own it very soon.

 

[The_Grand_Slam]

I think Nadal is finally at that stage where he just can't defend against Djokovics robotlike groundgame so it's tough to see him getting wins on non-clay surfaces where his groundstrokes have less bite.

It'll be interesting to see their matchup on clay.(I think Djokovic win be the favorite in B03 but B05 PC court I can't favor him over Nadal)

 

[atttomole]

I think Nadal can turn it around. He has done it before, with his tenacity.

 

[Federberg]

I think Nadal can turn it around. He has done it before, with his tenacity.

I have no doubt that Rafa has the ability to do it. Roger always had the ability to turn around his match up as well. But will he? More importantly will he be able to do it while he's still physically capable.Sands of time are another headwind for him

 

[mrzz]

Ugh, it seems I am always against the current. I really do not think Djokovic's in Nadal's head. Really. What I think is that Nadal is not on Djokovic's head, as he is in most other player's, who step on court already knowing that they will need the perfect outing to have a chance, and bow their heads down as soon as they miss the first doable winner, with that look "oh, it is so impossible to beat this guy". This makes Nadal's life way easier and Djokovic has closed that door ages ago. Actually he almost never had that attitude, even when he was losing to him more often than not.

Obviously Nadal takes more risks against Djokovic... but I simply don't see enough of the classical chokes or patterns of lost intensity. Really, really do not see it, at least not in scale to be relevant. A ton of other aspects are more important in this match up, IMO.

 

[Federberg]

Ugh, it seems I am always against the current. I really do not think Djokovic's in Nadal's head. Really. What I think is that Nadal is not on Djokovic's head, as he is in most other player's, who step on court already knowing that they will need the perfect outing to have a chance, and bow their heads down as soon as they miss the first doable winner, with that look "oh, it is so impossible to beat this guy". This makes Nadal's life way easier and Djokovic has closed that door ages ago. Actually he almost never had that attitude, even when he was losing to him more often than not.

Obviously Nadal takes more risks against Djokovic... but I simply don't see enough of the classical chokes or patterns of lost intensity. Really, really do not see it, at least not in scale to be relevant. A ton of other aspects are more important in this match up, IMO.

I was willing to entertain that point of view before Wimbledon last year. That match was a revelation. That was Novak moving furniture in Rafa's head. Simply no other explanation for that. It's worse than Novak being in Rafa's head. Novak looked across the court and felt his game was validated because he was facing Rafa...

 

[Denis]

Ugh, it seems I am always against the current. I really do not think Djokovic's in Nadal's head. Really. What I think is that Nadal is not on Djokovic's head, as he is in most other player's, who step on court already knowing that they will need the perfect outing to have a chance, and bow their heads down as soon as they miss the first doable winner, with that look "oh, it is so impossible to beat this guy". This makes Nadal's life way easier and Djokovic has closed that door ages ago. Actually he almost never had that attitude, even when he was losing to him more often than not.

Obviously Nadal takes more risks against Djokovic... but I simply don't see enough of the classical chokes or patterns of lost intensity. Really, really do not see it, at least not in scale to be relevant. A ton of other aspects are more important in this match up, IMO.

Good post, you should watch Djokovic pressers at RG before 2011 when he lost to Nadal a couple of times. Indeed it doesn’t bother him at all, sounds confident despite losing in straights.

 

[Denis]

I was willing to entertain that point of view before Wimbledon last year. That match was a revelation. That was Novak moving furniture in Rafa's head. Simply no other explanation for that. It's worse than Novak being in Rafa's head. Novak looked across the court and felt his game was validated because he was facing Rafa...

Which was really weird since Novak was nowhere and Rafa had won the FO and USO. I don’t know.

 

[Federberg]

Which was really weird since Novak was nowhere and Rafa had won the FO and USO. I don’t know.

Exactly my point

 

[AnonymousFan]

Novak’s just a better overall player currently imo

 

[Moxie]

I have no doubt that Rafa has the ability to do it. Roger always had the ability to turn around his match up as well. But will he? More importantly will he be able to do it while he's still physically capable.Sands of time are another headwind for him

I'm not convinced that Roger had the ability to fix that match up "all along," and I'm not convinced he's out of Roger's head, either. That was a lot of years and damage of Rafa rattling around in there. If he's so great, I'm not clear why he wouldn't have managed sooner, if it just took doing it. I mean, talk of being in someone's head, since you started the thread.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Ugh, it seems I am always against the current. I really do not think Djokovic's in Nadal's head. Really. What I think is that Nadal is not on Djokovic's head, as he is in most other player's, who step on court already knowing that they will need the perfect outing to have a chance, and bow their heads down as soon as they miss the first doable winner, with that look "oh, it is so impossible to beat this guy". This makes Nadal's life way easier and Djokovic has closed that door ages ago. Actually he almost never had that attitude, even when he was losing to him more often than not.

Obviously Nadal takes more risks against Djokovic... but I simply don't see enough of the classical chokes or patterns of lost intensity. Really, really do not see it, at least not in scale to be relevant. A ton of other aspects are more important in this match up, IMO.

Strongly disagree. Did you see the start of AO match. Ralf was shitting in pants and lost the very first serve game and went down 3-0. That was not because of any technical x's and o's. It was purely because Novak was in Ralph's head.

 

[Moxie]

Good post, you should watch Djokovic pressers at RG before 2011 when he lost to Nadal a couple of times. Indeed it doesn’t bother him at all, sounds confident despite losing in straights.

Or then there's the one in 2006 RG when he lost to him in straights (RET.) and insisted that the match had been on his racquet. He's always been confident, even when it was delusional. Has worked out in the really long run, I guess.

 

[Moxie]

Ugh, it seems I am always against the current. I really do not think Djokovic's in Nadal's head. Really. What I think is that Nadal is not on Djokovic's head, as he is in most other player's, who step on court already knowing that they will need the perfect outing to have a chance, and bow their heads down as soon as they miss the first doable winner, with that look "oh, it is so impossible to beat this guy". This makes Nadal's life way easier and Djokovic has closed that door ages ago. Actually he almost never had that attitude, even when he was losing to him more often than not.

Obviously Nadal takes more risks against Djokovic... but I simply don't see enough of the classical chokes or patterns of lost intensity. Really, really do not see it, at least not in scale to be relevant. A ton of other aspects are more important in this match up, IMO.

I wish I could agree with this, but I don't. Djokovic got him right out of the patterns he wanted to be in, and reverting back to too defensive. He was also mis-timing his best shots, which I think is nerves, which gets right at the footwork. In the past, they have often pressed each other, but it was all Novak pressing the other day. Obviously, it helps that it was at the AO, where Novak is super-confident. Had their next meeting post-Wimbledon been on clay, it would certainly have been different story. Personally, I thought you did feel the loss of intensity, palpably.

 

[mrzz]

Strongly disagree. Did you see the start of AO match. Ralf was shitting in pants and lost the very first serve game and went down 3-0. That was not because of any technical x's and o's. It was purely because Novak was in Ralph's head.

hmm... Nadal is a known slow starter. He has looked tentative at start of matches against players miles bellow Djokovic`s level. In those matches he ends up finding his grove and then seizes control with ease. With Djokovic on the other side of the net is a different story.

 

[Moxie]

hmm... Nadal is a known slow starter. He has looked tentative at start of matches against players miles bellow Djokovic`s level. In those matches he ends up finding his grove and then seizes control with ease. With Djokovic on the other side of the net is a different story.

I don't agree that Nadal is a slow-starter. And he's often come out hotter than Novak in their best matches. With lesser players he can trade breaks, then seize control. But with Novak and Roger he's often won the first, when he wins the match.

 

[lob]

Ugh, it seems I am always against the current. I really do not think Djokovic's in Nadal's head. Really. What I think is that Nadal is not on Djokovic's head, as he is in most other player's, who step on court already knowing that they will need the perfect outing to have a chance, and bow their heads down as soon as they miss the first doable winner, with that look "oh, it is so impossible to beat this guy". This makes Nadal's life way easier and Djokovic has closed that door ages ago. Actually he almost never had that attitude, even when he was losing to him more often than not.

Obviously Nadal takes more risks against Djokovic... but I simply don't see enough of the classical chokes or patterns of lost intensity. Really, really do not see it, at least not in scale to be relevant. A ton of other aspects are more important in this match up, IMO.

To me, this is right on the mark. I too don't agree that ND is in RN's head. RG H2H is a case in point. Djokovic certainly has the game to trouble Nadal off clay. He can match the Nadal's attrition style game, his backhand matches Nadal's forehand and there is no real weakness that Nadal can go after.

However, even with a great game, when Nadal can rattle you he finishes you off in no time. Nadal stays calm and smells weakness like a bloodhound.

 

[mrzz]

I don't agree that Nadal is a slow-starter. And he's often come out hotter than Novak in their best matches. With lesser players he can trade breaks, then seize control. But with Novak and Roger he's often won the first, when he wins the match.

I am talking more about the first games 4 or 5 games, than the the first set itself. Those traded breaks with lesser players usually happen in those early games (not exclusively, obviously). I do not mean this as a dig to Nadal, it is just a shorthand of the way I read his game. He adjusts his level to what is needed, he reads the opponent's game. Only natural that you pay a price in the beginning of the match.

You can even see that on match highlight videos. The best Nadal forehands always show up around the middle...

 

[The_Grand_Slam]

I am talking more about the first games 4 or 5 games, than the the first set itself. Those traded breaks with lesser players usually happen in those early games (not exclusively, obviously). I do not mean this as a dig to Nadal, it is just a shorthand of the way I read his game. He adjusts his level to what is needed, he reads the opponent's game. Only natural that you pay a price in the beginning of the match.

You can even see that on match highlight videos. The best Nadal forehands always show up around the middle...

That's why this AO was such a difference for him.He got early breaks and banked on his serve.Here he played lower levels in the third set.

Against quality opponents Nadal usually breaks in the 9-10 or 11-12 game of a set