Rating the Credentials of the Greats

[Kirijax]

There have been discussions on this in different threads and from many different angles but it's always fun to kick it around again. We often talk about who is the GOAT or who belongs in the Top Tier of the greats. When we talk about the greats we always look at the Grand Slams first, but there are so many other things to look at when evaluating a player's career. Sure the Slams are the greatest accomplishments but what about the rest of the tournament and accolades? Which carries more weight? For example; which should be more highly regarded; a Masters 1000 title or an Olympic gold medal? Everyone places their value on different accomplishments but what if you had to rate them? Here are the usual things we look at when discussing a player's career;

Wimbledon
US Open
French Open
Australian Open
World Tour Finals/WTA Championships
Year-End No. 1
Weeks at No. 1
Masters 1000/Premier Mandatory
Olympic Gold Medal
Number of tour titles
Davis Cup/Fed Cup
Grand Slam finals
Years in the Top Ten
Record vs. Rival(s)
Doubles titles

How would you list these accomplishments? There are other things out there, like consecutive wins, wins on clay, consecutive Grand Slam quarterfinals, etc. but that would make it almost impossible so keep it at the 15 accomplishments. How would rank them? Do you value a Masters 1000 title more than weeks at No. 1? Is there something you would take out and replace with something else? What makes a player greater than the other?

 

[Federberg]

You're right we've done this before many times :snicker

There are many variants of many El Dude threads on precisely this issue, but I'll play :snicker

Talking specifically about a players singles achievements that are worthy of historical comparison

Wimbledon - agreed
US Open - agreed
French Open - agreed
Australian Open - agreed
World Tour Finals/WTA Championships - agreed
Weeks at No. 1 - agreed
Year-End No. 1 - moved below weeks at no. 1, which shows total dominance, and not timing
Masters 1000/Premier Mandatory - agreed
Olympic Gold Medal - not for me!
Number of tour titles - agreed
Winning streaks above 20
Davis Cup/Fed Cup - not for me!
Grand Slam finals - agreed
No. of title defences
No of years winning at title
Years in the Top Ten - agreed
Record vs. Rival(s) - this is a tie-breaker for me, nothing more. You play against the field
Doubles titles - not relevant for singles

 

[Kirijax]

Most of what you listed looks good. Not sure consecutive wins is that big of a deal as the rest. Good point about the Year-end No. 1. I'm not that big on title defenses. Didn't even cross my mind. Number of years winning title is good. When we evaluate the players after they are retired, who comes out better; Federer who won seven Wimbledons or Djokovic who won seven Australians. I guess it would matter where you won all those titles.

Does everyone feel that the tours have pretty much worked out the kinks and oddities that it sent through in the 70s and 80s and we finally have the best possible setup and value system possible? I guess there is always room for improvement, like three weeks between FO and Wimby and changing the Davis Cup format, but this could be the basic standard the players follow for years now.

 

[Federberg]

Most of what you listed looks good. Not sure consecutive wins is that big of a deal as the rest. Good point about the Year-end No. 1. I'm not that big on title defenses. Didn't even cross my mind. Number of years winning title is good. When we evaluate the players after they are retired, who comes out better; Federer who won seven Wimbledons or Djokovic who won seven Australians. I guess it would matter where you won all those titles.

Does everyone feel that the tours have pretty much worked out the kinks and oddities that it sent through in the 70s and 80s and we finally have the best possible setup and value system possible? I guess there is always room for improvement, like three weeks between FO and Wimby and changing the Davis Cup format, but this could be the basic standard the players follow for years now.

Perhaps it's a matter of taste, but I remember things like Borg winning 5 in a row, Roger at Wimbledon and Flushing, Lendl's finals run at Flushing, Rafa at Monte Carlo etc. Defending titles adds to a players legend imho. Also the great ones have lots of unbeaten streaks, it's one thing that separates them from the merely very good. Check out the runs, Roger, Novak, Rafa, Mac, Edberg etc have had. Consistent excellence is part of true greatness...

 

[Kirijax]

Most of what you listed looks good. Not sure consecutive wins is that big of a deal as the rest. Good point about the Year-end No. 1. I'm not that big on title defenses. Didn't even cross my mind. Number of years winning title is good. When we evaluate the players after they are retired, who comes out better; Federer who won seven Wimbledons or Djokovic who won seven Australians. I guess it would matter where you won all those titles.

Does everyone feel that the tours have pretty much worked out the kinks and oddities that it sent through in the 70s and 80s and we finally have the best possible setup and value system possible? I guess there is always room for improvement, like three weeks between FO and Wimby and changing the Davis Cup format, but this could be the basic standard the players follow for years now.

Perhaps it's a matter of taste, but I remember things like Borg winning 5 in a row, Roger at Wimbledon and Flushing, Lendl's finals run at Flushing, Rafa at Monte Carlo etc. Defending titles adds to a players legend imho. Also the great ones have lots of unbeaten streaks, it's one thing that separates them from the merely very good. Check out the runs, Roger, Novak, Rafa, Mac, Edberg etc have had. Consistent excellence is part of true greatness...

Good point. Having a streak like that in one of the slams is definitely a way to make people remember you.

 

[Fiero425]

Most of what you listed looks good. Not sure consecutive wins is that big of a deal as the rest. Good point about the Year-end No. 1. I'm not that big on title defenses. Didn't even cross my mind. Number of years winning title is good. When we evaluate the players after they are retired, who comes out better; Federer who won seven Wimbledons or Djokovic who won seven Australians. I guess it would matter where you won all those titles.

Does everyone feel that the tours have pretty much worked out the kinks and oddities that it sent through in the 70s and 80s and we finally have the best possible setup and value system possible? I guess there is always room for improvement, like three weeks between FO and Wimby and changing the Davis Cup format, but this could be the basic standard the players follow for years now.

Perhaps it's a matter of taste, but I remember things like Borg winning 5 in a row, Roger at Wimbledon and Flushing, Lendl's finals run at Flushing, Rafa at Monte Carlo etc. Defending titles adds to a players legend imho. Also the great ones have lots of unbeaten streaks, it's one thing that separates them from the merely very good. Check out the runs, Roger, Novak, Rafa, Mac, Edberg etc have had. Consistent excellence is part of true greatness...

Good point. Having a streak like that in one of the slams is definitely a way to make people remember you.

That's one of the reasons I can't elevate Rafa to GOAT status; even with his H2H with Fed! His dismal defense record on other surfaces than clay is abysmal! I think he had his last great run in 2013 and won't get a sniff at #1 ever again! Right now he's just trying to hold onto being in the top 10! As everyone knows, I've been predicting this for years, but for reasons we don't know or care to investigate, he hung on quite a bit longer than I thought possible! uzzled :nono :cover

 

[Kirijax]

Perhaps it's a matter of taste, but I remember things like Borg winning 5 in a row, Roger at Wimbledon and Flushing, Lendl's finals run at Flushing, Rafa at Monte Carlo etc. Defending titles adds to a players legend imho. Also the great ones have lots of unbeaten streaks, it's one thing that separates them from the merely very good. Check out the runs, Roger, Novak, Rafa, Mac, Edberg etc have had. Consistent excellence is part of true greatness...

Good point. Having a streak like that in one of the slams is definitely a way to make people remember you.

That's one of the reasons I can't elevate Rafa to GOAT status; even with his H2H with Fed! His dismal defense record on other surfaces than clay is abysmal! I think he had his last great run in 2013 and won't get a sniff at #1 ever again! Right now he's just trying to hold onto being in the top 10! As everyone knows, I've been predicting this for years, but for reasons we don't know or care to investigate, he hung on quite a bit longer than I thought possible! uzzled :nono :cover

Not sure why you are always leading such a crusade against Nadal, but you are definitely in the minority. Two Wimbledons, two USOs, one Australian and eight Masters titles on hard courts is not abysmal.

 

[Fiero425]

Good point. Having a streak like that in one of the slams is definitely a way to make people remember you.

That's one of the reasons I can't elevate Rafa to GOAT status; even with his H2H with Fed! His dismal defense record on other surfaces than clay is abysmal! I think he had his last great run in 2013 and won't get a sniff at #1 ever again! Right now he's just trying to hold onto being in the top 10! As everyone knows, I've been predicting this for years, but for reasons we don't know or care to investigate, he hung on quite a bit longer than I thought possible! uzzled :nono :cover

Not sure why you are always leading such a crusade against Nadal, but you are definitely in the minority. Two Wimbledons, two USOs, one Australian and eight Masters titles on hard courts is not abysmal.

I don't understand; if you think Rafa's so great and I'm in such the minority, "why are you so threatened by my comments?" I openly have been saying how much contempt I have for his way of playing and his whole act! There's nothing new, but I can always depend on you coming to his defense! I didn't think he needed it! How many here beat up on Nole from the way he plays to his haircut? I just let it go because I'm confident in his being a legitimate #1 and a great representative in tennis! He isn't as self-serving as some pro that will remain nameless so you can sleep at night! I'll come across a new way to spew my venom! Give me time! I try not to be a hypocrite anyway! :nono :angel:

 

[Kirijax]

That's one of the reasons I can't elevate Rafa to GOAT status; even with his H2H with Fed! His dismal defense record on other surfaces than clay is abysmal! I think he had his last great run in 2013 and won't get a sniff at #1 ever again! Right now he's just trying to hold onto being in the top 10! As everyone knows, I've been predicting this for years, but for reasons we don't know or care to investigate, he hung on quite a bit longer than I thought possible! uzzled :nono :cover

Not sure why you are always leading such a crusade against Nadal, but you are definitely in the minority. Two Wimbledons, two USOs, one Australian and eight Masters titles on hard courts is not abysmal.

I don't understand; if you think Rafa's so great and I'm in such the minority, "why are you so threatened by my comments?" I openly have been saying how much contempt I have for his way of playing and his whole act! There's nothing new, but I can always depend on you coming to his defense! I didn't think he needed it! How many here beat up on Nole from the way he plays to his haircut? I just let it go because I'm confident in his being a legitimate #1 and a great representative in tennis! He isn't as self-serving as some pro that will remain nameless so you can sleep at night! I'll come across a new way to spew my venom! Give me time! I try not to be a hypocrite anyway! :nono :angel:

LOL　I'm not "threatened" by your comments. I'm annoyed when I have to read the same thing over and over again. And I'm not a Nadal fan, nor do I come running to his defense. But respect is due where it's due. You can scream and stomp and shout and tell everyone that an orange in not an orange, but nothing is going to change the fact that it's an orange. Nothing is going to change the fact that Nadal is one of the greatest players of all-time. How about spewing something positive? It's healthier and you'll feel better. Come on. Repeat after me. Nadal. Is. A. Great. Player. Come on now! It won't hurt! Give it a go!

 

[Fiero425]

Not sure why you are always leading such a crusade against Nadal, but you are definitely in the minority. Two Wimbledons, two USOs, one Australian and eight Masters titles on hard courts is not abysmal.

I don't understand; if you think Rafa's so great and I'm in such the minority, "why are you so threatened by my comments?" I openly have been saying how much contempt I have for his way of playing and his whole act! There's nothing new, but I can always depend on you coming to his defense! I didn't think he needed it! How many here beat up on Nole from the way he plays to his haircut? I just let it go because I'm confident in his being a legitimate #1 and a great representative in tennis! He isn't as self-serving as some pro that will remain nameless so you can sleep at night! I'll come across a new way to spew my venom! Give me time! I try not to be a hypocrite anyway! :nono :angel:

LOL　I'm not "threatened" by your comments. I'm annoyed when I have to read the same thing over and over again. And I'm not a Nadal fan, nor do I come running to his defense. But respect is due where it's due. You can scream and stomp and shout and tell everyone that an orange in not an orange, but nothing is going to change the fact that it's an orange. Nothing is going to change the fact that Nadal is one of the greatest players of all-time. How about spewing something positive? It's healthier and you'll feel better. Come on. Repeat after me. Nadal. Is. A. Great. Player. Come on now! It won't hurt! Give it a go!

Honey, don't hold your breath! He can go away now and the only thing I'll miss is seeing him go down in flames to some nobody! :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kirijax]

I don't understand; if you think Rafa's so great and I'm in such the minority, "why are you so threatened by my comments?" I openly have been saying how much contempt I have for his way of playing and his whole act! There's nothing new, but I can always depend on you coming to his defense! I didn't think he needed it! How many here beat up on Nole from the way he plays to his haircut? I just let it go because I'm confident in his being a legitimate #1 and a great representative in tennis! He isn't as self-serving as some pro that will remain nameless so you can sleep at night! I'll come across a new way to spew my venom! Give me time! I try not to be a hypocrite anyway! :nono :angel:

LOL　I'm not "threatened" by your comments. I'm annoyed when I have to read the same thing over and over again. And I'm not a Nadal fan, nor do I come running to his defense. But respect is due where it's due. You can scream and stomp and shout and tell everyone that an orange in not an orange, but nothing is going to change the fact that it's an orange. Nothing is going to change the fact that Nadal is one of the greatest players of all-time. How about spewing something positive? It's healthier and you'll feel better. Come on. Repeat after me. Nadal. Is. A. Great. Player. Come on now! It won't hurt! Give it a go!

Honey, don't hold your breath! He can go away now and the only thing I'll miss is seeing him go down in flames to some nobody! :angel: :dodgy:

I'm not your Honey.