Props to Nadal for his record against top American players (37-9)

calitennis127

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As I was watching Nadal dominate Querrey in the semifinals on Wednesday, I was inspired to look up his records against various American players. It is remarkable just how thoroughly he has dominated them.

Mind you, the only player on this list that I liked watching much was Agassi and he played Nadal when he was wobbling around on bad knees and bad hips. That series would have been different if a healthier Agassi got some cracks at Nadal. I also enjoyed some of Blake's explosive shotmaking even though in terms of his personality I thought he was a corny tool.

At any rate, here is the breakdown:

Roddick: 7-3
Fish: 8-1
Isner: 7-1
Ginepri: 2-0
Querrey: 5-1 (after Wimbledon)
Harrison: 2-0

Blake: 4-3
Agassi: 2-0


Pretty funny, isn't it?

This match might me the most memorable to me of Nadal dominating an American player on a big stage - Nadal v. Roddick at 2007 Indian Wells:

 

brokenshoelace

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Cali threads and Donald Trump tweets have a lot in common in terms of randomness. Of course, Cali threads are actually comprehensible.
 
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calitennis127

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Cali threads and Donald Trump tweets have a lot in common in terms of randomness. Of course, Cali threads are actually comprehensible.

Well thank you, but I don't think you are giving Trump enough credit for many of his tweets. For example, his tweets on the farcical Russia investigation were right on point. Who was right about that whole affair - Trump or the media dolts who promoted that hoax?

When Trump said in his tweets that Mueller and the "13 angry Democrats" were highly conflicted, he was absolutely right. He was also right that they were engaged in a "witch hunt." Those tweets were right on point.
 

calitennis127

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Watching some of the Djokovic-Isner match today reminded me of this thread. For those who say I am not fair to Nadal, please recall my compliments to him for kicking the ass of various American players.
 

Moxie

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Ah, sweetie. US tennis is pretty crap, and the only "great" on the list is Agassi, who you mentioned above as "wobbling around on bad knees and bad hips" when Nadal beat him. (However, when Nadal beat him in 2005 in Canada, Agassi still made the final at USO, so he wasn't that crap yet.) Anyway, kind of a "back-handed" compliment, wouldn't you say? If you go by nations, Nadal even has a winning record v. Swiss players, too. Not to mention French ones, Spanish ones, British ones, Italian ones, Australian ones, Argentines...should I go on?
 

calitennis127

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Ah, sweetie. US tennis is pretty crap, and the only "great" on the list is Agassi, who you mentioned above as "wobbling around on bad knees and bad hips" when Nadal beat him. (However, when Nadal beat him in 2005 in Canada, Agassi still made the final at USO, so he wasn't that crap yet.) Anyway, kind of a "back-handed" compliment, wouldn't you say? If you go by nations, Nadal even has a great record v. Serbian players and Swiss ones. Not to mention French ones, Spanish ones, British ones, Italian ones, Australian ones, Argentines...should I go on?


Lol.....interesting that you bring up Serbian players, because Nadal has 28 losses to one Serbian player (and he should have a bunch more to him). And yes, he has a pretty strong record against players from all countries, but he appears to enjoy a unique level of dominance when it comes to facing the American ones.

That said, I do agree that U.S. tennis is very poor. And the reasons for that are quite obvious.
 

Moxie

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Lol.....interesting that you bring up Serbian players, because Nadal has 28 losses to one Serbian player (and he should have a bunch more to him). And yes, he has a pretty strong record against players from all countries, but he appears to enjoy a unique level of dominance when it comes to facing the American ones.

That said, I do agree that U.S. tennis is very poor. And the reasons for that are quite obvious.
As you see above, I'd deleted the Serbians, because I was going for only nations where Nadal had a winning record against all players from one country, but you snagged it before I edited. ;) Worth remembering how long it took a certain Serbian to pass him, though. And Nadal has 26 wins over Novak, so that could yet change.

You say the reasons for US (men's) tennis being crap are quite obvious. What would you say they are? Because US women's tennis is arguably better.
 

calitennis127

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As you see above, I'd deleted the Serbians, because I was going for only nations where Nadal had a winning record against all players from one country, but you snagged it before I edited. ;) Worth remembering how long it took a certain Serbian to pass him, though. And Nadal has 26 wins over Novak, so that could yet change.

And it could very well go drastically the other way.....starting with the last two events of the year. I would not get my hopes up if I were you.

You say the reasons for US (men's) tennis being crap are quite obvious. What would you say they are? Because US women's tennis is arguably better.

The best male athletes (white and black) in the USA do not even give a thought to tennis as a first sport. Also, tennis is too literary and aesthetic a game for a country like America, which really does not have any sort of highbrow tradition except for classical scholars (particularly from the South) who are now regarded as neo-fascists or something like that. Tennis is a natural game for the French, Swiss, Germans, Brits, and Europeans generally because - even in their current degraded state - they cannot avoid the highbrow tradition that goes hand-in-hand with tennis by virtue of their proximity to European cities.

In America, we have zero intellectualism aside from some right-wing thinkers who are totally alienated and unappreciated. In Europe intellectualism is unavoidable because the major cities force it out of you. Tennis is a game for Vienna and Paris much more than, say, Indianapolis or even New York, with its ugly, oversized, and grotesque Arthur Ashe stadium.
 

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The best male athletes (white and black) in the USA do not even give a thought to tennis as a first sport. Also, tennis is too literary and aesthetic a game for a country like America, which really does not have any sort of highbrow tradition except for classical scholars (particularly from the South) who are now regarded as neo-fascists or something like that. Tennis is a natural game for the French, Swiss, Germans, Brits, and Europeans generally because - even in their current degraded state - they cannot avoid the highbrow tradition that goes hand-in-hand with tennis by virtue of their proximity to European cities.

In America, we have zero intellectualism aside from some right-wing thinkers who are totally alienated and unappreciated. In Europe intellectualism is unavoidable because the major cities force it out of you. Tennis is a game for Vienna and Paris much more than, say, Indianapolis or even New York, with its ugly, oversized, and grotesque Arthur Ashe stadium.
Uh, oh...here's where you go off the rails. Tennis is not an especially "literary" sport in the US. We have a far greater literary tradition in baseball. Nor is it more aesthetic than other ones. I think you mean "expensive." It's 5th or 6th tier for men, in terms of making money. Call it what it is.

Talented US athletes amongst men gravitate towards sports other than tennis because they are more lucrative. US women do better because it is the most lucrative sport for female athletes, and we have a large talent pool. Other countries do better, though, because they support tennis. And why? Not because it's so high-brow, but because it's high-profile, and, after soccer, they're not so much distracted by basketball, baseball, hockey and US football. How many options do they have, other than Olympic sports?
 

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When a 19 time Grand Slam champion needs to be complimented on beating sub-par American players. Seems like a very odd thing to compliment considering it's probably not in his top 50 achievements.
 

calitennis127

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Uh, oh...here's where you go off the rails. Tennis is not an especially "literary" sport in the US. We have a far greater literary tradition in baseball. Nor is it more aesthetic than other ones. I think you mean "expensive." It's 5th or 6th tier for men, in terms of making money. Call it what it is.

No, I'm sorry, I have been around all the major American sports and they have a very different culture than tennis - in some ways better, in some ways worse. On the good side, tennis is more of a cultivated game. On the bad side, it tends to be somewhat effeminate and wussy in the case of most American contestants.

Talented US athletes amongst men gravitate towards sports other than tennis because they are more lucrative.

Lol.....I'm afraid you have not been around or followed U.S. male athletes much. They don't even give a thought to tennis because they don't really know about it or like it or care about it. It is not a financial calculation. It's just not a part of American sports culture - white or black. Baseball is mostly a white game (and of course Latinos, especially in the Caribbean, love it and excel at it). Basketball is mostly a black game. And football is a black/white mix. Neither white males nor black males in America generally give a damn about tennis.

Also, when it comes to being lucrative? Don't get ahead of yourself. Most pro basketball players have very transient lives and nowhere near the earnings possibilities of ATP professionals. Players in the NBA D-League make basically nothing. Also, most minor league players for the MLB are not compensated as well as ATP players. And NFL players have very short careers with non-guaranteed contracts.

Money (along with the opportunity to travel the world) would actually be a huge reason for going into tennis, not avoiding it.

US women do better because it is the most lucrative sport for female athletes, and we have a large talent pool.

And part of the reason U.S. women have a large talent pool when it comes to tennis is that American women, on average, consider tennis as an option more often. And that itself is partially due to the reality that no one cares about women's pro sports other than tennis. The revenue stream for women's basketball and soccer is utterly pathetic. Hardly anyone watches because it is so boring.

Other countries do better, though, because they support tennis. And why? Not because it's so high-brow, but because it's high-profile, and, after soccer, they're not so much distracted by basketball, baseball, hockey and US football. How many options do they have, other than Olympic sports?

Those practical realities are part of the equation but I still maintain that tennis does not connect well with American culture generally. It's hard to see how a bunch of suburban whites in America whose female kids play softball can connect much with tennis. And I am not saying that as a baseball hater (I used to watch it a lot, a while back), but simply because it is just very different.
 

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Yeah, he really owned it in the Australian Open final. He could not have been more dominant.
nadal also a hero for his country winning them a gold metal+ 4 davis cups, that a class man he is and of course Djokovic owned Federer at 2011 Australian open lol. its ok I know your saitly nadal won us open and is about to get number one:(:rose:
 
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Moxie

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No, I'm sorry, I have been around all the major American sports and they have a very different culture than tennis - in some ways better, in some ways worse. On the good side, tennis is more of a cultivated game. On the bad side, it tends to be somewhat effeminate and wussy in the case of most American contestants.

Jeepers, the things you come up with. I agree with you in general that tennis still tends to be seen as an elite sport, and it does nothing to dispel the notion. Other sports embrace trash-talk, and tennis clutches at its pearls, for example. I get that other sports in the US can be seen as more butch, but I still think you stretch a notion a bit too far. For example, perhaps the fans of tennis are a bit more cultivated, but the game isn't necessarily, and the players just really aren't. There are athletes in all sports who are cultured and curious beyond their own sport, but they tend to be rarer than hens' teeth, including in tennis.

Lol.....I'm afraid you have not been around or followed U.S. male athletes much. They don't even give a thought to tennis because they don't really know about it or like it or care about it. It is not a financial calculation. It's just not a part of American sports culture - white or black. Baseball is mostly a white game (and of course Latinos, especially in the Caribbean, love it and excel at it). Basketball is mostly a black game. And football is a black/white mix. Neither white males nor black males in America generally give a damn about tennis.

Also, when it comes to being lucrative? Don't get ahead of yourself. Most pro basketball players have very transient lives and nowhere near the earnings possibilities of ATP professionals. Players in the NBA D-League make basically nothing. Also, most minor league players for the MLB are not compensated as well as ATP players. And NFL players have very short careers with non-guaranteed contracts.

Money (along with the opportunity to travel the world) would actually be a huge reason for going into tennis, not avoiding it.

You love to pretend that I don't really know anything about sports or male athletes, whereas you are the expert in all. You know nothing about me, and I don't owe you my life story, but you're just wrong about that. I grew up with all sports, surrounded by athletes, and count an ex-NFL player, an MLB player and an Olympian amongst my exes. It's just that not everyone feels the neurotic need to declare themselves an expert in all things and to tear down others.

I'm not clear why you felt it necessary to give a breakdown of the ethnic make-up of other sports, as it is deeply irrelevant to this conversation. I do understand that there are a lot of people/men who don't have much exposure to tennis, but I disagree with you that there is no financial calculation to how a gifted young athlete chooses a sport. This is a reverse example but: Kyrgios wanted to play basketball, but his father said that there was no money in it in Oz, so he'd have to go with tennis. Likewise, Safin's mother forced him into tennis over soccer, because she could coach him in tennis and figured he'd have a better career that way. I absolutely know that a lot of lesser players in the more popular sports can have very short careers and don't really make the big bucks. The average length of an NFL career is 3 years, for example.

One of the failings of the USTA is in outreach. Not every kid is going to make it to the NBA/NFL/NHL/MLB, and if they could excel in tennis, they might have a better niche for themselves. Other countries do better in part because they have robust federations to back up their young tennis players.

And part of the reason U.S. women have a large talent pool when it comes to tennis is that American women, on average, consider tennis as an option more often. And that itself is partially due to the reality that no one cares about women's pro sports other than tennis. The revenue stream for women's basketball and soccer is utterly pathetic. Hardly anyone watches because it is so boring.

I believe that's what I said about women in US tennis, as it's well-renumerated. I would have to disagree that no one watches US women's soccer. (WTF? I guess you missed the recent World Cup.) And they're fighting on the pay. Basketball has a small and loyal following, especially at the college level. But, I don't want to start a world war on women's sports. Golf, though, is another one where women make money.

Those practical realities are part of the equation but I still maintain that tennis does not connect well with American culture generally. It's hard to see how a bunch of suburban whites in America whose female kids play softball can connect much with tennis. And I am not saying that as a baseball hater (I used to watch it a lot, a while back), but simply because it is just very different.

This is where your generalities lose me. I don't see that tennis doesn't "connect well" with American culture, especially if you're going to use suburban whites as an example. Or what it has to do with your not liking baseball anymore. "Doesn't connect well" with our culture is a meaningless statement. Why, because tennis is some sport of kings, or liberal chardonnay drinking intellectual coastal dwellers, and we're too red-meat/anti-intellectual for that? That's silly...it's a sport. It's true that tennis is down the list (6th,) but it is very popular with female consumers of sport in the US. And, btw, basketball, track and volleyball rank higher with HS girls than softball.
 

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Oh, and Kobe Bryant doesn't give such a sh!t about tennis, that he wrote a tennis-themed book.

 

calitennis127

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Oh, and Kobe Bryant doesn't give such a sh!t about tennis, that he wrote a tennis-themed book.



Lol....he became interested in it after getting super-rich and having time to kill. Also, Kobe's background is hardly representative of most black Americans. Have you ever been to Lower Merion, Pa? It is one of the wealthiest and whitest places in America, right by Villanova University. It is the wealthiest suburb of Philadelphia along with Radnor. Plus Kobe grew up in Italy because his dad was a pro basketball player there.

The teachers at Lower Merion High School often make well above 6 figures and the school is surrounded by million-dollar homes. Pointing to Kobe as some kind of typical representation is beyond ridiculous.
 

Moxie

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That was pretty much just for fun.
 

calitennis127

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That was pretty much just for fun.


Well, let me also tell you "just for fun" that even though I respect and admire Kobe in many ways and enjoyed watching him play (especially between 2010 and 2013 before his Achilles injury), he was regarded in his early days as a kind of dork who wasn't really street. The cool thing in the early 2000s was baggy shorts, Allen Iverson-like self presentation, and the And-1 mixtape (go look it up on youtube). Kobe was seen by many at that time as rather soft and prissy based on his background. That's part of the reason he went to play at Rucker Park one summer - so he could improve his street credibility and toughen up his image a little bit.
 

brokenshoelace

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Lol....he became interested in it after getting super-rich and having time to kill. Also, Kobe's background is hardly representative of most black Americans. Have you ever been to Lower Merion, Pa? It is one of the wealthiest and whitest places in America, right by Villanova University. It is the wealthiest suburb of Philadelphia along with Radnor. Plus Kobe grew up in Italy because his dad was a pro basketball player there.

The teachers at Lower Merion High School often make well above 6 figures and the school is surrounded by million-dollar homes. Pointing to Kobe as some kind of typical representation is beyond ridiculous.

Your general point isn’t without merit, but people who are extremely talented at a sport tend to pay attention to other sports. Westbrook has talked about playing lots of tennis growing up, for example.