Players that return serve too far back

[mrzz]

I wanted to participate more on all threads lately but unfortunately due to work I cannot. Anyway, one common topic here is posters complaining about players returning serve too far back. You can point out that such approach has some problems, but... seriously, I am baffled with how people can say that they simply just should advance three or four steps and, violà, all your problems are solved.

Seriously guys, every time I see this written in a post, I need to make a giant effort to even read the rest (and a lot of times I fail). I am not sure if you noticed, but players do practice. And they practice for years. Their brains are extremely trained to deal with that situation (return serve from that position). They are used to the timing, the height of the ball, the angles to the court, the distance to the net. And, if they are losing a match, or having it competitive, people instantly shout: "hey, return closer to the line, do something that you are not used too because surely it will win you the match". Sorry, it is beyond crazy.

I could understand if people would say such things expecting an actual consistent change in, say, six months, but it is not the case. It is always shouted as something that, if corrected mid match, would have changed the outcome. It would have made it worse. It is like saying that "I was sure that #145 ranked player could have won that match against a top 5, but he refused to hit the big three forehands that he had to hit in order to win".

Aham.

Case in point, Nadal. I cannot believe that I need to say this, but his serve returning position, combined to his strength, allowed him to put back a giant number of balls back in play and that was one of the major factors in, I don't know, 16 or 17 of his 19 majors. Quick reactions (relatively speaking for great players) are not among his greatest weapons. An extremely effective return of serve (in terms of making the point go back to "neutral") is. It is baffling that people want to trade one for the other.

Medvedev is similar. He stays far back probably for the same reason that he is not a terrific net player. He needs the extra split second. Djokovic can return serve glued to the baseline. Federer as well. But they are different players, different skill sets. No wonder one is the greatest returner of all time and other is one of the greatest volleyers of all time (honestly, I would love to see 70's and 80's players trying to volley in today's game, I think they would just stand still and see the missiles flying past them. Federer's volleys are extremely underrated historically wise).

But I am ranting.

 

[brokenshoelace]

It can be related to tactics, comfort zone, big backswings (biggest factor IMO) or all of the above. For Nadal, it is all 3. He does take big cuts at the ball off both wings and he likes to have time. I actually always notice that his returning improves over the course of a match as a result of reading the serve better but also finding the timing (early on he tends to drop it way too short, largely due to standing so far back, or try to compensate and hit it long). However, where I'd like to see Nadal change his tactics is on second serves, as he almost always has more success when he stands closer to the baseline in key moments. On the first serve, he should absolutely keep doing his thing.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Nadal knows what he’s doing. Medvedev destroyed Djokovic with his serve hitting ace after ace but he could never do this to Rafa.

 

[tented]

Anyway, one common topic here is posters complaining about players returning serve too far back. You can point out that such approach has some problems, but... seriously, I am baffled with how people can say that they simply just should advance three or four steps and, violà, all your problems are solved.

Guilty. But I doubt I have ever said all of his problems would be solved. My impression is this trend of complaining about Nadal’s positioning largely began by commentators (many of them former pros) endlessly pointing it out, thus planting the idea in viewers’ heads. Their tone while doing this is a kind of critical amazement: “Can you believe how far back he is?”, “He’s so far back, he’s out of camera range,” “He’s returning from [insert name of nearby city]”, “Why doesn’t he move in closer to the baseline?” (The last one most often said on second serve, of course.)

The constant drip of these remarks further the notion of criticism. After all, they don’t remark in this manner about any other part of his game with even close to this frequency. (Yes, they talk constantly about the time between points, etc., but that’s different.)

Djokovic can return serve glued to the baseline. Federer as well. But they are different players, different skill sets. No wonder one is the greatest returner of all time and other is one of the greatest volleyers of all time

True, of course. I guess the frustration surrounding Rafa’s near-inflexible positioning stems from his occasionally standing closer, if not (rarely) on the baseline, and succeeding (again, mainly on second serve). I also think when players such as Roger (and Serena) stand on or inside the baseline, their opponents hit a noteworthy number of double faults.

It’s similar to the endless criticism of Roger not running around to return Rafa’s serve with his forehand. It has happened, but relatively rarely. If we analyzed some of their RG finals, for example, how many times would we find Roger not returning with his backhand? Yet he knows there’s a 90-95% chance the serve is going to his BH.

But I am ranting.

Absolutely not! It’s a conversation well worth having, IMO.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Re: Rafa

It's telling that often in these matches you can see him adjusting his positioning on the return and trying to stand closer (only to revert back if he misses) meaning that he even recognizes that at times it is not the best approach. I don't think anything should be as dogmatic as "always stand closer." After all, 19 slams and constantly posting the best return numbers on tour imply otherwise. But there are specific match-ups where this is clearly ill advised, especially against aggressive players who are punishing him with 1-2 punches or drop shots. The Verdasco match from the 2009 AO is a prime example. Then again, that was over 10 years ago.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Actually, IMO, Ralph varies his return positions quite a bit during the match in comparison to other players. One obvious thing is that often he might come closer for second serve returns. But, I have also noticed that often if he is in a leading position in the match he tends to come relative closer to the baseline than otherwise.

Finally, I heard that Rafa had two different practice sessions at this USO. In one session, he was returning from far behind and in another session he was returning from fairly close to baseline. Contrary to what you say, Ralph practices both. That is his level of dedication to details.

Of course, I would agree with you that most players would do practice from only one position which will become their comfort zone and if they change it mid-match it will only be a disaster.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I don't want to open another thread. Let me also discuss a related topic here itself. This is about winning strategies when your opponent is returning from way behind.

We all know one clear strategy here. That is serve and volley to finish off the point quickly. I really really lamented when Kevin Anderson refused to come forward after his powerful serve when Ralph was standing miles behind in that USO final. I surely thing he would have made life lot harder for Ralph.

Anyway, the new strategy (especially when the opponent is not hitting a short return) is to hit a drop shot off of the return. I am not talking about a generic drop shot in the middle of a rally here. I am talking about the drop shot as the third shot of the rally (serve by you, return by opps and then the shot by you). This was nicely used by Berrettini multiple times against Ralph in the SF. This was also used by Med a few times, but not as frequently as Matteo. I liked this strategy very much. But, I guess the disguise would not be great, but still there is a long run needed for the opponent.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Everything that needs to be said about this topic is right above but I just want to mention that, as far as returning from another area code is concerned, the return that Medvedev made at set point to win the 4th set was a thing of utter beauty. I could not find a video but if you can...

 

[Moxie]

I like this topic, @mrzz. Very interesting and it explores tactics. I agree with Broken and Tented that the frustration with Rafa is only sometimes on the 2nd serve, because it could help him, and he does practice both, and can do well with both. But starting far behind the baseline to return is where he is comfortable, so you won't make him change that.

Like GSM, I'd like to comment on a smaller point you made in the OP: that we can't just ask players to play differently than they are comfortable with, just because we think so. I made the point during the live chat about Medvedev. People were asking why he didn't make certain changes, and I think it's an unfair expectation, especially when he was in his first final of a Major. In extremis, I think players will largely stick with the one that brought them to the dance. As you see, we Rafa fans have complaints about Rafa not making certain adjustments, and Roger's fans have complained about his stubbornness over the years. I don't know how we can expect younger/lesser players to 'simply' make adjustments on the fly.