OK, Fedophiles, what's the excuse this time?

brokenshoelace

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I figured I'll take some of the heat off my buddy El Dude since the conversation regarding that thread's quality and purpose is still going on (and I'm largely responsible for it), by creating a thread of my own, which will likely fall just as flat. But I'm doing it for the greater good. Let's debate how bad this thread is here, and forget about that other one. I'm the hero these forums deserve, just not the one it needs right now.

EDIT: I forgot to add a poll, but the options would have been: Old, old, old, old, old, and old.
 

Fiero425

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Broken_Shoelace said:
I figured I'll take some of the heat off my buddy El Dude since the conversation regarding that thread's quality and purpose is still going on (and I'm largely responsible for it), by creating a thread of my own, which will likely fall just as flat. But I'm doing it for the greater good. Let's debate how bad this thread is here, and forget about that other one. I'm the hero these forums deserve, just not the one it needs right now.

EDIT: I forgot to add a poll, but the options would have been: Old, old, old, old, old, and old.

I believe after 30, it becomes a mental game more than a physical one; even though age is basically the reason! Mentally I've seen players lose it; their nerve and confidence! Happened to Martina Navratilova; even at the end it wasn't as physical a problem as it was mentally IMO! If you don't have the confidence to do something, it doesn't matter how much ability you have and Roger has cracked on many occasions over the last several years! He has had great coaching, both Paul and Stefan have encouraged him to move forward, but he's still fighting it, thinking "I can still win from the baseline and slap winners on command!" He's fooling himself and I have the feeling it'll get ugly before all is said and done!
 

shawnbm

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Stan played better for a sustained period of time down the stretch and Roger could not keep up. Stanimal hits a heavier ball than Roger these days and no longer yields as easily when in prolonged rallies. In what is likely a highly unusual stat between these two--Stan won far more rallies of over nine shots.
 

Front242

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Roger played a stinker of a game on Stan's serve at 0-15 5-5 in the 2nd set, exerting no pressure, making easy misses/errors and allowing Stan an easy hold. Showed no killer instinct in trying for the break there and then played a very poor tiebreak. He was a joke in set 3. Though he won set 1 I didn't think he played very well even there. I mean compare his level today to set 1 against Djokovic yesterday. Night and day. Congrats to Stan and I like his game but Roger really let this title chance slip. Badly. That's reality.
 

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shawnbm said:
Stan played better for a sustained period of time down the stretch and Roger could not keep up. Stanimal hits a heavier ball than Roger these days and no longer yields as easily when in prolonged rallies. In what is likely a highly unusual stat between these two--Stan won far more rallies of over nine shots.

Roger's trying to go for broke for sustained periods just isn't going to work! IMO it's almost reminiscent of Evonne Goolagong at her best, slapping the ball around, but when it goes wrong, it's bad and can be embarrassing! Lucky for him most of the other players are gutless and can't finish matches themselves on many occasions when ahead of the big 4! Stan has come of age, but it won't last! He's had the most success over his fellow elite players of late! :angel:
 

masterclass

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Hmm, don't know what OP is on about. Trying to stir the pot again, I expect. ;)

Roger was quite happy for Stan, his friend and compatriot, just as he was happy for his good friend Tommy Haas when he lost at Halle 2012, and Lleyton in Brisbane.
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Roger reached a final in a tournament he didn't expect to play, taking a wildcard at the last minute.

This title was important for Stan to bolster his confidence after him experiencing a bit of letdown after winning the AO. It should let him be a bigger factor in future tournaments, especially in Davis CUp, and against the big guns when they eventually return to form. That obviously won't hurt Federer if Stan can be successful against them. But eventually if they continue to play well, one would have to expect these two will face each other again; will it be the same outcome as today? Who knows?.

It would not have been good for Stan if he had lost in two sets to Federer playing so-so, as he did in the first set and some of the second.

Stan's challenge will be to be consistent against lesser players and not only hit a good level for the top players. Federer will probably be looking to stay healthy and continue to play well enough to go deep and give himself opportunities to win titles. That's 3/4 or more of the battle. He's made 4 finals this year, winning 1, a SF and a QF, and won all his Davis Cup singles rubbers and ties, and won more matches than anyone else on the tour. Not bad for him, when so many were writing him off after last year's performance.

Fans might make excuses for their players, but Federer will make no excuses.
From his facebook page:

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Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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You know Broken, as soon as Roger lost today I thought, "I bet Broken is going to start a thread copying the Rafapologists one." Hey, I can take it. :cool:

As for why he lost, well...Stan is the Man, for one. He's playing at a very high level. Secondly, Roger looked like he ran out of steam and as soon as he lost the tiebreaker, it seemed his spirit flagged a bit. It is hard to come back from that one.

The concern I have for Roger is that I think he can win an ATP 2000 because he can play two quality sets, and one just good enough if he needs to. But a Slam? I'm not even sure its physical stamina as much as mental wherewithal. He just seems to...crumple.

Anyhow, I'm pleased for Stan. This cements that he's not a fluke, that he must be taken seriously in ANY tournament going forward. Who knows, he could even have a shot at Roland Garros if Novak isn't healthy and Rafa is XXXX.*

*"XXXX" denotes whatever Rafa fans believe to be the cause of his diminished play of late. I would never be so bold to speculate. :snigger
 

Front242

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That top photo you posted, masterclass really shows off Roger's withered looking puny left arm. Terrible.
 

Front242

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Btw masterclass, of those 3 matches in question from the ones you posted, I'd have to say the only one Roger truly played pretty decent in was the loss to Haas in Halle which I actually predicted correctly and made a good deal of cash on Haas. Tommy certainly needed to do more to win there than Stan and Lleyton had to. But credit to the 3 of them all the same for taking advantage of less than good performances from Roger, apart from Halle where as I mentioned, I thought Roger still played a good match and lost to a guy who actually needed to play very well to win.
 

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Front242 said:
That top photo you posted, masterclass really shows off Roger's withered looking puny left arm. Terrible.

It was a lot more common back "in the day" when weight-lifting and other training was "verboten!" Vilas was a lot like that; huge left arm while the right looked like it belonged to another guy!
 

brokenshoelace

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El Dude said:
You know Broken, as soon as Roger lost today I thought, "I bet Broken is going to start a thread copying the Rafapologists one."

Good call. Just like your thread, I wasn't exactly going for originality ;)
 

brokenshoelace

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I seriously doubt Roger is so "happy for his friends" in all of the above listed matches by the way. At least, I hope not.
 

masterclass

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Why not? They are his friends, especially Stan and Tommy. Lleyton more so of late. Federer has won so much, I doubt he begrudges them winning once in a while. I'm sure he may have liked to have won, but nobody wins everything forever.

He lost to Tommy, and immediately said post match that he was extremely happy for Tommy.
Then in the next breath, Roger said that he, himself, would be difficult to beat at Wimbledon...

Here are Federer's quotes post the Monte Carlo 2014 Final match:

"Of course, I'm very happy for Stan," said Federer. "It's a huge win for him after winning his first Grand Slam this year, also to win his first Masters 1000. To take the opportunities when they're there, that's key in a tennis player's career. So I'm very happy for him."

"I think it's one of the those finals that I could have won," said Federer. "But Stan was tougher at the end. I think he deserved it just a little bit more. Clearly it would have been nice to win that second set tie-break. I didn't necessarily play a bad one, but also at the same time I didn't quite ever get into the lead where things went my way.

"I would have loved to have won a second title [this season] because I've come close a few times. That's my next objective, that I get to the very end more frequently. But clearly I'm happy that the clay court season started so well for me."


Respectfully,
masterclass
 

brokenshoelace

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Masterclass, Federer is a competitor who hates losing. While I'm sure he takes defeat much better at this stage of his career after all he's accomplished, I think it's a stretch to say he's "happy" for one of his friends when they beat him. He probably prefers losing to them than someone else, sure. But I think the disappointment of losing a final -- any final -- is going to overshadow any feeling of happiness he might experience.

As far as his comments go, it's the politically correct thing to do.
 

masterclass

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Broken, it's easy to contradict his direct words and project your own thoughts on his true feelings from your keyboard. I suggest that if you were to meet Roger face to face, you would be a little less sure of yourself, and I very much doubt you would challenge his words and feelings on the matter.

It's quite presumptuous on your part, is it not?

At any rate, I'm sure he's happier that they won versus anyone else but himself.

That is, he probably would have been happier if he had won. But he can also be happy for them.
The two are not incompatible.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Front242

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As Broken says, it's PC to smile and be friendly at the net and say he's happy Stan won but you can bet at home Roger will be moaning to Mirka and/or smashing the shit out of his house with his nice new racquet! Or I should hope he is. If not there's something wrong. Champions aren't happy they lost to anyone once they're away from media and in this case the friend who won.
 

brokenshoelace

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masterclass said:
Broken, it's easy to contradict his direct words and project your own thoughts on his true feelings from your keyboard. I suggest that if you were to meet Roger face to face, you would be a little less sure of yourself, and I very much doubt you would challenge his words and feelings on the matter.

It's quite presumptuous on your part, is it not?

At any rate, I'm sure he's happier that they won versus anyone else but himself.

That is, he probably would have been happier if he had won. But he can also be happy for them.
The two are not incompatible.

Respectfully,
masterclass

You know what? You're right. I guess we should also believe Nadal when he says he needs to play his best to have a chance to beat Rochus. Public figures will never, ever, say the right things even if they don't FULLY mean them. This never happens, naturally. Their words are always 100% taken for face value.

Also, Masterclass, if you'd taken the time to read carefully, you'd notice that I said the following:

"I think it's a stretch to say he's "happy" for one of his friends when they beat him. He probably prefers losing to them than someone else, sure. But I think the disappointment of losing a final -- any final -- is going to overshadow any feeling of happiness he might experience."

Which isn't too different from what you meant when you said:

"At any rate, I'm sure he's happier that they won versus anyone else but himself.

That is, he probably would have been happier if he had won. But he can also be happy for them.
The two are not incompatible."

Unless you're being presumptuous as well?
 

masterclass

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"I think it's a stretch to say he's "happy" for one of his friends when they beat him. He probably prefers losing to them than someone else, sure. But I think the disappointment of losing a final -- any final -- is going to overshadow any feeling of happiness he might experience."

As far as his comments go, it's the politically correct thing to do.


The bolded parts is what I consider pure conjecture on your part and implies he is lying or posturing. They contradict what he openly states.

That is what I think is presumptuous. I'm not being presumptuous to quote him, or to show pictures of him where he looks genuinely happy.

If you think that he is posturing, then that's your opinion, based on what exactly? You have some inside knowledge about what he is really thinking that we don't know about, which you would care to share?

Maybe I'll switch tacks here and make it more relevant to everyday life. Remember, these players are human, not machines.

Did you ever have a brother or sister or close friend? Did you ever compete with them at anything, such as a footrace or cards or whatever?

Were you clearly better at something than they were, but still competed, because the competition itself, or game, or whatever still was enjoyable, or just something you regularly did?

Did you ever once stumble, or fall, or forget the cards, or whatever, so that they were able to beat you for once? Were you glad to see their happiness at finally being able to give you a good battle?
Did it make you happy for them, for that moment?

Or were you sick and dismayed that you had lost to your brother, sister, or friend, and secretly upset that you had somehow managed to lose to somebody you consider inferior at whatever it was, and then pretended to be happy for them, just so that they would think you were being nice?

Or maybe you would have like to have won, and regret that you didn't, but the look of joy of at their winning transcended those feelings? I have been in that position more than once, and I am highly competitive, even where some prize was at stake, and I tell you, in those moments where I was bested by my friend, or brother, I was genuinely happy for them, despite any irritation that I had somehow managed to lose, especially if it was a rare thing. In fact it brought me a great sense of inner joy, to see the outward joy and relief on one's friend's or brother' face in a moment where they have finally managed to somehow unbelievably conquered, even if only for a single time.

Maybe you don't look at it that way, but I don't believe it is fair to assume otherwise of others, especially when it directly contradicts what they say.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

masterclass

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1972Murat said:
Outplayed and outhit in the third.

Yes. No doubt. Stan was tougher at the end and deserved it.

Respectfully,
masterclass