Let's Talk Serves

[El Dude]

Watching Raonic play today got me thinking about Goran Ivanisevic and great servers in general. So a simple question: Who would you place into these categories? If you feel so bold, rate them on a scale of 1-10:

Great (9-10)
Good (6-8)
Fair (4-5)
Poor (1-3)

I don't mean only capacity to ace but also to set up winners. Feel free to discuss both active and retired players.

A secondary question, or group of questions: Among great servers, whose success is most tied to their serve? Which great servers can best adjust if their serve isn't on?

Have at it.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Current players:

Isner is an easy 10. You have huge (and I mean HUGE), almost unplayable serving, with a freakishly high first serve percentage when you factor in how big he's hitting it, which is of course made possible by his size. What makes this a no-brainer though, is the quality of the second serve. And that's what separates him from say, Karlovic.

I'd say his success is EXCLUSIVELY tied to his serve.

Karlovic is another 10. The second serve is not quite Isner like but it's pretty damn good, and the first serve is, when taken in isolation, the greatest serve of all time by a country mile. I'm actually impressed that he's able to serve and volley relatively effectively off of such huge serves, as generally you take a little bit of pace off when you want to come in behind your serve.

Another one whose success is exclusively tied to his serving.

Federer: 8.5. Great first serve in terms of placement and variety. Works well on all surfaces, gives him aces, free points, and most importantly, sets up a ton of one-two punches. Makes it so easy for him to find a forehand on the subsequent shot. A VERY good second serve too, and extremely difficult to attack. Very few double faults, which is a plus.

 

[El Dude]

Good stuff, Broken. I assume that you'd give Sampras a 10? Or a 9.5? He seems to be a good example of a great serve whether or not it is an ace. Same with Federer, but even better.

So what would you give Rafa or Novak? Andy? Etc. Raonic seems like a 9 to me, Dimitrov an 8.

 

[tented]

Good stuff, Broken. I assume that you'd give Sampras a 10? Or a 9.5? He seems to be a good example of a great serve whether or not it is an ace. Same with Federer, but even better.

So what would you give Rafa or Novak? Andy? Etc. Raonic seems like a 9 to me, Dimitrov an 8.

Great thread, El Dude!

At this stage, I'd give Rafa a 7 -- medium good. The lefty aspect certainly features in this. If he were to execute those same serves, but right-handed, there would be trouble. As is, however, he's good at moving it around the box, and putting tricky, unwieldy spin on it.

Novak: 6 -- low good. Now that I think about it, it's the absolute last thing I think of in terms of his game. Djokovic = one of the greatest returners of all time. Serve doesn't cross my mind. Maybe it should.

Andy Murray: 5. Mostly because of the second serve. He can hit fast, accurate first serves, but the second is always less reliable, less effective. I don't know if anyone has the stats, but I'd bet he has the largest average difference between first and second serve speed.

Federer: 9, especially taking into account his entire career.

McEnroe: also a 9. Serve-and-volley, baby.

Roddick: 9. Where would he have been without it?

When he's on, Raonic is way up there. Probably an 8.

Del Potro can also serve accurate bombs when he's on. His serving in 2009 was awesome.

 

[Ricardo]

Good stuff, Broken. I assume that you'd give Sampras a 10? Or a 9.5? He seems to be a good example of a great serve whether or not it is an ace. Same with Federer, but even better.

So what would you give Rafa or Novak? Andy? Etc. Raonic seems like a 9 to me, Dimitrov an 8.

Sampras's serve is better than Fed's but not really in the same category as Ivo or Isner, giving a 10 is too generous and devalue a perfect score. Only other guy getting a 10 would be Goran's first serve when he is on, but he is generally not as consistent as the other two - all have untouchable first serves though.

Fed is a good 8.5 or 9 and Sampras a tad better say 9 or 9.5, but Rafa and Djoker? Rafa looked like a 9.5 at 2010 USO but in general he is maybe 7.5 to 8 - i think he mostly intends his serve to start a point not end it.
Djoker is on par with Rafa overall, as long as we forget about the horrible 2009/2010.

 

[El Dude]

Kei Nishikori was looking like a 9 in that match against Rafa.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Sampras was at the highest level for a server Ever. Sampras had the best 1st and more importantly 2nd serve. Pete could change speeds but typically served in the mid 120 for the entirety of a match. Pete is the only server who could be down 0-40 and still be in total control of his service game. Pete would drop 5 straight bombs on the likes of Agassi .John McEnroe is rated to low, his serve wasnt about power but placement and set up his first volley. Isner has the best in today's ATP touis

 

[Front242]

Many might not have heard of him but Joachim Johansson gets a 9 or even 10 easily. No wonder a guy serving so many aces (and fast too!) eventually had shoulder problems. Made a comeback at the Swedish open last year but think he's retired again eventhough wiki doesn't say so.

Anyway, from the matches I watched his serving was incredible and this is from wiki:

"He held the record for most aces served in one match as he aced Andre Agassi 51 times in the 4th round of the 2005 Australian Open (though he still lost the match in four sets). In the post-match press conference, Johansson said he felt he could have served better." Gotta love that. Felt he could've served better

 

[brokenshoelace]

Good stuff, Broken. I assume that you'd give Sampras a 10? Or a 9.5? He seems to be a good example of a great serve whether or not it is an ace. Same with Federer, but even better.

So what would you give Rafa or Novak? Andy? Etc. Raonic seems like a 9 to me, Dimitrov an 8.

Sampras is an easy 10 for me due to the combination of both the first and second serves (perhaps the best second serve in history), as well as his ability to find that serve in the clutch. His serve gave him free points, aces, and set up the serve and volley. Add to that a terrific second serve and it's as close to perfect as it can get.

Nadal's serve is anywhere from 6 to 7.5 depending on how well he's serving. For instance, his serving in late 2010 is even higher than 7.5. I'd say it was an easy 8/8.5 (but that was too brief a period to take into consideration). His serving at the North American hard court season last year was a good 7.5. His serving when he's just spinning it in (like he is currently) is a generous 6 (maybe even less). But, on average, Nadal has a serviceable serve. I wouldn't call it anything more or less. Often times, he'll deliberately take off pace because he doesn't want the ball coming back at him too quickly so he can get the necessary time to get set for the next shot and open up the forehand. He does have decent placement, and knows how to use it effectively to set up the rest of the rally. It compliments the rest of his game nicely. Of course, it has a lot of shortcomings such as not consistently giving him free points on crucial points, especially in certain match-ups... His second serve is extremely predictable and at times quite attackable, yet there must something to the spin he puts on it because not a lot of people actually attack it (and Murray talked about how tricky it is). But yes, even if it's not attacked, it's still extremely mediocre. To his credit, he doesn't double fault much. And of course, we have to mention how high his first serve % constantly is, which his a plus.

Novak is a 7.5 server, I'd say. Perhaps 8 on a really good serving day. Ignoring the phase he went through when he was really struggling with his serve (mid-2009/2010), he's got a terrific flat serve out wide on the ad court, and a generally good first serve all around. His second serve, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated shots in tennis. It is just so difficult to attack, and he'll often hit it with terrific depth and surprising pace.

Murray's serve is the weirdest one for me, since it at times it looks like a 6, and others it looks an 8.5. Among the big 4, he's got the biggest serve. Yet, he often won't go for pace, and his first serve percentage is usually the lowest out of the top 4. His second serve is a weakness too. Predictable, attackable, and generally gets him behind in the rally. I'd say Murray is a 7.5 server too, but better than that on a good day.

Raonic is an easy 9.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Good stuff, Broken. I assume that you'd give Sampras a 10? Or a 9.5? He seems to be a good example of a great serve whether or not it is an ace. Same with Federer, but even better.

So what would you give Rafa or Novak? Andy? Etc. Raonic seems like a 9 to me, Dimitrov an 8.

Sampras is an easy 10 for me due to the combination of both the first and second serves (perhaps the best second serve in history), as well as his ability to find that serve in the clutch. His serve gave him free points, aces, and set up the serve and volley. Add to that a terrific second serve and it's as close to perfect as it can get.

Nadal's serve is anywhere from 6 to 7.5 depending on how well he's serving. For instance, his serving in late 2010 is even higher than 7.5. I'd say it was an easy 8/8.5 (but that was too brief a TCperiod to take into consideration). His serving at the North American hard court season last year was a good 7.5. His serving when he's just spinning it in (like he is currently) is a generous 6 (maybe even less). But, on average, Nadal has a serviceable serve. I wouldn't call it anything more or less. Often times, he'll deliberately take off pace because he doesn't want the ball coming back at him too quickly so he can get the necessary time to get set for the next shot and open up the forehand. He does have decent placement, and knows how to use it effectively to set up the rest of the rally. It compliments the rest of his game nicely. Of course, it has a lot of shortcomings such as not consistently giving him free points on crucial points, especially in certain match-ups... His second serve is extremely predictable and at times quite attackable, yet there must something to the spin he puts on it because not a lot of people actually attack it (and Murray talked about how tricky it is). But yes, even if it's not attacked, it's still extremely mediocre. To his credit, he doesn't double fault much. And of course, we have to mention how high his first serve % constantly is, which his a plus.

Novak is a 7.5 server, I'd say. Perhaps 8 on a really good serving day. Ignoring the phase he went through when he was really struggling with his serve (mid-2009/2010), he's got a terrific flat serve out wide on the ad court, and a generally good first serve all around. His second serve, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated shots in tennis. It is just so difficult to attack, and he'll often hit it with terrific depth and surprising pace.

Murray's serve is the weirdest one for me, since it at times it looks like a 6, and others it looks an 8.5. Among the big 4, he's got the biggest serve. Yet, he often won't go for pace, and his first serve percentage is usually the lowest out of the top 4. His second serve is a weakness too. Predictable, attackable, and generally gets him behind in the rally. I'd say Murray is a 7.5 server too, but better than that on a good day.

Raonic is an easy 9.

this is what's frustrating about Rafael's serve is he doesn't serve Always with the typical nasty lefty spin to the body. If he just focused on that aspect of his serve , his number would raise to a 7.5 because he protects it well at critical times. U mentioned Murray has a difficult time reading it, Fed has an extremely difficult time reading it but not the cannon of Arod. Djoker reads Rafa serve to easily and he gets away with cheating on the ad(vantage) court with his backhand. Rafa has to take some pace off when he serving down the T to keep djoker honest( isn't that an oxymoron if I ever heard one, keep a "joker" honest ).

 

[TsarMatt]

Steering away from the GOAT servers, I think the serve is somewhat of an overlooked component is Federer's accomplished game. He was so clutch with it in his prime, and even to this day, generates a decent amount of pop off it. But it's his ball placement and accuracy that always used to impress me the moment. He always had a reliable serve, me thinks, and it was a great weapon to use to get him out of trouble.

 

[Ricardo]

Sampras was at the highest level for a server Ever. Sampras had the best 1st and more importantly 2nd serve. Petex could change speeds but typically served in the mid 120 for the entirety of a match. Pete is the only server who could be down 0-40 and still be in total control of his service game. Pete would drop 5 straight bombs on the likes of Agassi .John McEnroe is rated to low, his serve wasnt about power but placement and set up his first volley. Isner has the best in today's ATP touis

that's just cool aid thinking, Sampras' 1st serve was nowhere near Karlovic/Isner's just look at the stats - you can't argue with the numbers. Never understand why fans can just claim this and that just because they love someone.... like reality doesn't matter anymore uzzled

 

[brokenshoelace]

Sampras never had the best first serve on tour (it was great, but not THE best, as was claimed in an earlier post). Not when he was playing, and certainly not of all time. But it's the combination of 1st and 2nd serve that make him among the all time great serving, as well as his ability to hit aces in the clutch, take pace off to serve and volley, etc...

 

[Kieran]

I disagree totally, brother. Pete's serve was almost impossible to read, he could swing it in any direction off the one toss. And the true test of a shot is in the heat of the clutch: Pete's serve was unimpeachable when tested at the very highest levels...

 

[brokenshoelace]

I disagree totally, brother. Pete's serve was almost impossible to read, he could swing it in any direction off the one toss. And the true test of a shot is in the heat of the clutch: Pete's serve was unimpeachable when tested at the very highest levels...

How is that disagreeing totally?

 

[Ricardo]

I disagree totally, brother. Pete's serve was almost impossible to read, he could swing it in any direction off the one toss. And the true test of a shot is in the heat of the clutch: Pete's serve was unimpeachable when tested at the very highest levels...

so was most of the other great servers, who are all capable of serving different directions off the same toss. Sampras's serve is easier for returner to put back in play than say, Karlovic or Goran's serve who obviously are much inferior at dealing what comes back....... but they come back less frequently, which is the point of discussion - it's the serve alone!!

 

[atttomole]

Karlovic 10
Isner 10
Raonic 10
Gulbis 9.5
Federer 9
Djokovic 8
Nadal 7.5

I think people ignore Gulbis because he rarely goes deep in tournaments, but I think his serve is excellent. One of his problems is that his serving can be patchy, but when he is on, he is unplayable. Federer is disappointing these days because his serve falls apart when he is under pressure more often, unlike during his prime.

 

[TennisFanatic7]

Of the current big four, I think Murray has the biggest first serve but Federer has the best all round first serve and second serve, while Andy's second serve is the weakest. Nadal's serve is decent enough and helped by the fact that he's a lefty. Djokovic has a decent first serve and good variety on his second serve.

Overall, I'd give
Federer 9
Murray 7
Djokovic 7
Nadal 6.5

Raonic at the moment has to be at least 9, I'd say 9.5.

 

[Kieran]

I think currently Rafa's serve would be maybe 7.5 or 8 out of 10...on the WTA tour. :nono

 

[El Dude]

I think currently Rafa's serve would be maybe 7.5 or 8 out of 10...on the WTA tour. :nono

Funny. Yeah, I'm a bit surprised with those who rate it a 7-8. I'd say it is more like a 6, with 7 being at it's peak in 2010.

How would Serena Williams' serve be rated in the ATP? I'm thinking about a 5, with almost any other woman being a 3 or worse.