Is Roger Federer Truly Done? We Can't Know...Yet

El Dude

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Roger started the year strongly, defending his Australian Open title and then winning Rotterdam. He then won his first five matches at Indian Wells before losing to Juan Martin del Potro in a tight three set final.

In other words, Roger started the year by winning his first 17 matches. Since then? 19-6, a relatively pedestrian 75 win %.

After losing to del Potro he went on to lose to #175 Thanasi Kokkinakis in his first match of Miami Masters, then hung up his racket for the clay season.

He came back in June to win Stuttgart, including wins against Nick Kyrgios and Milos Raonic. He was in his element, but something seemed off. He looked like he was cruising to another Halle title before stumbling and losing to a hot Borna Coric in the final.

And then Wimbledon happened. He coasted through the first four matches, not losing a set, before losing to #8 Kevin Anderson in a five-setter. It was at that point that the questions increased in perfidy from a quiet murmur to a louder discussion. He was shaky in Cincinnati but made the final, losing to a surging Novak Djokovic. Still hard to say for sure, but the concerns had not been assuaged.

Finally we come to the US Open, where he looked shaky but played well enough to win his first three matches. And then John Millman happened, with Roger losing to the #55 player in the 4th round. Disaster struck.

The tone on this message board is, to capture it in a simple and short phrase, "Roger is done." Not as a title winner, maybe not even as a Masters winner, but as a majors winner. One poster even said "100% chance Roger doesn't win another major." Even most of his ardent fans agree.

But is that true? Are we jumping the gun? Sure, Roger is 37 and has played poorly, at least after Indian Wells (no shame in losing to del Potro in a tight three setter). 17-0 to start the year isn't bad at all.

But what has happened to him since? Has Father Time finally caught up to him?

If January 2017 to January 2018 hadn't happened, I'd say absolutely, time to face the inevitable. But this is Roger Federer, the guy who won the Australian Open after not playing professional tennis for over five months (other than the Hopman Cup). At age 35!

Certainly there is cause for serious concern. His first serve percentage has been terrible and while his return improved, it still looks off. He seems listless, not going for balls that he normally would jump at. His forehand and backhand are OK, but just that: OK. He is moving decently, but without that gazelle-like spring that made him seem so ageless.

The big question is: Can he find that new lease on life that he discovered before the 2017 Australian Open, when he surprised even (perhaps even most of all) himself?

This version of Roger Federer will win more titles, or at least the two he needs to reach 100. But he probably won't win the 12 more he needs to pass Jimmy Connors, and he certainly won't win any more Grand Slams.

Sometimes the end comes fast. I had a cat growing up that was young and wild until she was 18 years old. Then one day we found her huddled up like an old woman wearing woolen shawl. She died a few weeks later - no disease, just age catching up in a hurry. 18 years of youth, a month of old age.

I hope that isn't the case with Roger. We might not know for a few months, as he struggles to regain his form during the last couple months of the year. We might not know until he's been able to rest for a couple months and comes back fresh in January. But I suspect we'll know by the 2019 Australian Open. An in-form Roger might still lose to a six-year younger Djokovic, but an in-form Roger won't lose to Millman or Anderson or anyone other than an in-form Novak (or maybe Rafa).

For now I'm leaving the question unanswered, but I think we'll have our answer come January.
 

Denis

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Fed needs Novak, Nads, JMDP to be not able to compete/ reach it to his section of the draw + some luck that he does not get upset against the likes of Kevin A and John Millman. I think the chances of that are very slim.

Great that he is still out there tho fighting.
 

herios

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I would stretch the period of "when will we know if he is done" to next summer.
I think Wimbledon is still the more probable slam for him, if he still has one in him.
 
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mrzz

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I think current version of Federer is exactly as @Denis wrote above. The Federer of the first half of 2017, on the other hand, would be in a much much stronger position. However, I do not think he is willing to put up the hard work he needs to get back to such level, so that's why I count him as pretty much "done". But I agree with @El Dude that (in other words) statistically we cannot say anything yet.

I will say something that will sound like heresy, specially given how I appreciate the big three: I don't think that neither of them wins that much anymore because I simply don't think they are playing that good anymore.
 

DarthFed

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Fed needs Novak, Nads, JMDP to be not able to compete/ reach it to his section of the draw + some luck that he does not get upset against the likes of Kevin A and John Millman. I think the chances of that are very slim.

Great that he is still out there tho fighting.

Nah, he needs to just start taking the game seriously again. He kicked the shit out of Nadal last year and JMDP is just like Cilic, a major contender but not elite and probably won't ever be again.

Now a resurgent Nole is a whole different animal, even if Roger plays great it's a tough ask to beat Djoker in a best of 5, especially if it's not a very fast surface.

I don't think Roger is done, it's really more about whether he wants it badly enough to put in the work in practice and bring a greeedt attitude to the court. I'd say 5 of his 6 losses have been outrageous for lack of a better word in that he basically collapsed from overwhelming positions. Only one he lost that he was easily handled was Cincy final vs Djoker and that was an atrocious week of play even before the final.

Ultimately I'd say Roger will be a top 2-3 favorite at Wimbledon for at least 2 more years.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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Roger showed this year glimpses of his peak and his peak is still good enough for 99% of the field. But the peak Roger was shorter than last year. So it will go down even more next year. He will not be able to beat an in form Nole, and some young guys will start to give him a hard time too.
Nole is winning the next AO. Roger may have one more Wimby in him, that's it. Some smaller events, sure...But would that make him happy? I doubt it. He will not be happy just existing. It is decision time for Roger.
 

lob

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In other words Roger is done everywhere except at Wimbledon. Roger is choking. The difference between early 2018 and the nightmare later is he has tightened up out there. Do you think Roger would lose to Anderson or Milman if he was playing loose? Especially, Anderson was inexplicable.

Unfortunately, nor can he play within himself. He can't outgrind s&@t. So how can he get his confidence back? AO, RG and USO are out of question in my mind. Wimbledon is up to the luck of the draw and Roger's game. With Djokovic, Nadal in the picture now?Even that is a long shot.




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atttomole

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It is going to be harder for Roger. However, if the Australian Open can remain quick, or is is quickened further, he may have a chance there too, besides Wimbledon of course.
 

El Dude

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I would stretch the period of "when will we know if he is done" to next summer.
I think Wimbledon is still the more probable slam for him, if he still has one in him.

I agree re: Wimbledon as far as his best chance at 21, but think we will have a strong sense where he’s at after AO.
 

monfed

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Obviously a talented player like Fed can have a great run in any slam and win it all but I think he's truly done sadly. Can't see how he can improve more, his physical decline has passed the point of no return I feel.
 

lob

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Obviously a talented player like Fed can have a great run in any slam and win it all but I think he's truly done sadly. Can't see how he can improve more, his physical decline has passed the point of no return I feel.
It's not just physical decline. You have more bad days as you get older. Physically you may feel fine but forcing yourself to mentally hang in there to finish the job becomes hard. You can win on experience if you have at least a few rock solid strengths that won't give out for 7 matches in row. He chokes because he knows that something or the other will give out over two weeks. He won AO 17 because he just relaxed out there and attacked.

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El Dude

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It is a complex system, and I think players fall into a vicious cycle. The older you get, the longer the recovery time and the harder you have to work to get to 100%. If you're not feeling 100%, that takes away a bit of confidence which might lead to hesitancy with shots and/or shanking. And so it goes.

The problem for Roger is not only is he 37, but prime Novak has returned. Roger proved in 2017 that his renewed form can beat Rafa anywhere off clay, but Novak? We just haven't really seen a lot of peak Roger vs. peak Novak. It has either been peak Roger vs. baby Novak (2005-10) or peak Novak vs. old Roger (2011-16).
 

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Roger started the year strongly, defending his Australian Open title and then winning Rotterdam. He then won his first five matches at Indian Wells before losing to Juan Martin del Potro in a tight three set final.

In other words, Roger started the year by winning his first 17 matches. Since then? 19-6, a relatively pedestrian 75 win %.

After losing to del Potro he went on to lose to #175 Thanasi Kokkinakis in his first match of Miami Masters, then hung up his racket for the clay season.

He came back in June to win Stuttgart, including wins against Nick Kyrgios and Milos Raonic. He was in his element, but something seemed off. He looked like he was cruising to another Halle title before stumbling and losing to a hot Borna Coric in the final.

And then Wimbledon happened. He coasted through the first four matches, not losing a set, before losing to #8 Kevin Anderson in a five-setter. It was at that point that the questions increased in perfidy from a quiet murmur to a louder discussion. He was shaky in Cincinnati but made the final, losing to a surging Novak Djokovic. Still hard to say for sure, but the concerns had not been assuaged.

Finally we come to the US Open, where he looked shaky but played well enough to win his first three matches. And then John Millman happened, with Roger losing to the #55 player in the 4th round. Disaster struck.

The tone on this message board is, to capture it in a simple and short phrase, "Roger is done." Not as a title winner, maybe not even as a Masters winner, but as a majors winner. One poster even said "100% chance Roger doesn't win another major." Even most of his ardent fans agree.

But is that true? Are we jumping the gun? Sure, Roger is 37 and has played poorly, at least after Indian Wells (no shame in losing to del Potro in a tight three setter). 17-0 to start the year isn't bad at all.

But what has happened to him since? Has Father Time finally caught up to him?

If January 2017 to January 2018 hadn't happened, I'd say absolutely, time to face the inevitable. But this is Roger Federer, the guy who won the Australian Open after not playing professional tennis for over five months (other than the Hopman Cup). At age 35!

Certainly there is cause for serious concern. His first serve percentage has been terrible and while his return improved, it still looks off. He seems listless, not going for balls that he normally would jump at. His forehand and backhand are OK, but just that: OK. He is moving decently, but without that gazelle-like spring that made him seem so ageless.

The big question is: Can he find that new lease on life that he discovered before the 2017 Australian Open, when he surprised even (perhaps even most of all) himself?

This version of Roger Federer will win more titles, or at least the two he needs to reach 100. But he probably won't win the 12 more he needs to pass Jimmy Connors, and he certainly won't win any more Grand Slams.

Sometimes the end comes fast. I had a cat growing up that was young and wild until she was 18 years old. Then one day we found her huddled up like an old woman wearing woolen shawl. She died a few weeks later - no disease, just age catching up in a hurry. 18 years of youth, a month of old age.

I hope that isn't the case with Roger. We might not know for a few months, as he struggles to regain his form during the last couple months of the year. We might not know until he's been able to rest for a couple months and comes back fresh in January. But I suspect we'll know by the 2019 Australian Open. An in-form Roger might still lose to a six-year younger Djokovic, but an in-form Roger won't lose to Millman or Anderson or anyone other than an in-form Novak (or maybe Rafa).

For now I'm leaving the question unanswered, but I think we'll have our answer come January.
 

19USC66

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Roger Federer may play as long as he wants. He has earned this right. However, laughingly about year ago I suggested if these young guys don't start winning the big guys at the top may continue to play until they are 50 years of age. Today, what I stated in jest may not be so funny. I am a Federer fan, but can someone else win. Enough Fed, Djokovic, and Nadal. This is not healthy for the future of the game, or maybe those three gentleman were truly blessed by the tennis gods. This is really bizarre. Roger needs 13 more years to reach 50. Who knows?
 

Jelenafan

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The problem for Roger is not only is he 37, but prime Novak has returned. Roger proved in 2017 that his renewed form can beat Rafa anywhere off clay,.

For ONE year.

I know Fed fans want 2017 to be the definitive stamp ( They NEED it to be) but there’s no saying Rafa couldn’t have problem solved Roger this year.
 

El Dude

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For ONE year.

I know Fed fans want 2017 to be the definitive stamp ( They NEED it to be) but there’s no saying Rafa couldn’t have problem solved Roger this year.

Sure, I hear that. But look at it from a Fed fan's perspective: Roger had been utterly dominated by Rafa for almost a decade, and more so he had never had a period of dominance over Rafa. From late 2016 through 2017, he won five matches in a row. This was huge for his legacy and for the comparison vs. Nadal; sure, the H2H is still unflattering (although no longer awful), but the fact that Roger was able to dominate Rafa to such a degree negates that big question mark in Roger's resume. In other words, it is less about the impact on the H2H and more about the fact that Roger was able to not only "solve" Rafa, but dominated him for an extended period.

The equivalent in Rafa's career would be him beating Novak in 2013. Previously Novak had dominated Rafa at his best in 2011. Rafa's best year was 2010, but he was just as good in 2011 - only against Novak did he struggle. If he hadn't played well against Novak in 2013, there'd be this asterisk in his resume: that peak Novak beats peak Rafa, therefore maybe Novak is greater. And while I do think that overall peak Novak has the match-up edge over peak Rafa, it isn't large enough to heavily skew things.
 
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Jelenafan

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The thing is that at one point in big matches, Rafa beat Roger on ALL surfaces in the Majors, I can admit that Nole did that to Rafa also, as Rafa earlier at one point did it to Nole. Nole also beat a Roger rather emphatically on all 3 surfaces.

Roger in the last year beat Nadal all on HC matches, but he never problem solved him on clay in big matches. What hurts Rogers legacy in this respect is by foregoing clay his dominance on HC on hardcourts for 1 year, while good, certainly is a 1 surface domination for a short period. Rafa dominated Roger on a surface for 11 straight years. Certainly to me in context it blows a single year single surface dominance out of proportion. Federer never even took Nadal on clay to 5 sets at Roland Garos yet Nadal took Federer to 5 sets at the 2017 AO. By the USO who knows how they would have fared.

Contrast with grass where Nadal did beat Federer on his best surface in 5 sets at a W final, and lost another final to Federer in 5 sets. Nadal also previously beat Federer at the AO.

Again the legacy of 2017 seems a bit inflated , doesn’t IMO *negate* that Rafa was competitive with Federer on 3 surfaces, not just one.
 

DarthFed

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The thing is that at one point in big matches, Rafa beat Roger on ALL surfaces in the Majors, I can admit that Nole did that to Rafa also, as Rafa earlier at one point did it to Nole. Nole also beat a Roger rather emphatically on all 3 surfaces.

Roger in the last year beat Nadal all on HC matches, but he never problem solved him on clay in big matches. What hurts Rogers legacy in this respect is by foregoing clay his dominance on HC on hardcourts for 1 year, while good, certainly is a 1 surface domination for a short period. Rafa dominated Roger on a surface for 11 straight years. Certainly to me in context it blows a single year single surface dominance out of proportion. Federer never even took Nadal on clay to 5 sets at Roland Garos yet Nadal took Federer to 5 sets at the 2017 AO. By the USO who knows how they would have fared.

Contrast with grass where Nadal did beat Federer on his best surface in 5 sets at a W final, and lost another final to Federer in 5 sets. Nadal also previously beat Federer at the AO.

Again the legacy of 2017 seems a bit inflated , doesn’t IMO *negate* that Rafa was competitive with Federer on 3 surfaces, not just one.

And Nadal for most of his career has been irrelevant on grass and was unable to make more than 3 matches at Wimbledon. Bottom line is Roger as a geriatric kicked the crap out of Nadal last year including a couple matches on slow hardcourts. What that really proves more or less is how badly Roger performed against him due to a mental block for so many years, one which was earned by Nadal through dominating Fed on clay. That's why I talk about how pathetic matches like Wimbledon 08 and AO 09 were from Fed's perspective. He pissed his pants at the sight of Nadal and lost in atrocious fashion on surfaces he shouldn't have.
 
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Jelenafan

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And Nadal for most of his career has been irrelevant on grass and was unable to make more than 3 matches at Wimbledon. Bottom line is Roger as a geriatric kicked the crap out of Nadal last year including a couple matches on slow hardcourts. What that really proves more or less is how badly Roger performed against him due to a mental block for so many years, one which was earned by Nadal through dominating Fed on clay. That's why I talk about how pathetic matches like Wimbledon 08 and AO 09 were from Fed's perspective. He pissed his pants at the sight of Nadal and lost in atrocious fashion on surfaces he shouldn't have.

Tell you what. Nadal lost to Roger last year due to some “mental block”. Yes that sounds good.

Your reasoning basically can be summed up as Federer’s wins count and Rafa’s don’t. It has nothing to do with actual results but minimizing the results you don’t like. Federer did lose all those matches to Nadal so stating “he shouldn’t have” doesn’t magically negate them.
 
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