If keeping wild animals in enclosures was cruel isn't the domestication of animals also cruel?

[Horsa]

After part of a discussion I had the other week on whether zoos were cruel or necessary the point was made that keeping wild animals in enclosures was cruel no matter what, which made me wonder whether people also thought that keeping pets was also cruel because in effect keeping pets is still keeping animals in small spaces. All domestic animals were wild at 1 time. The mustelid/mustellidae family of animals which includes the badger (meles meles), the ferret, the Northern European polecat, the otter, the pine marten, the stoat & the weasel has 2 different animals where the only difference between them is 1 is wild & the other is domesticated & that is the ferret & the Northern European polecat. The ferret is the domesticated Northern European polecat.

38,000 years ago we domesticated the Takhi which later became extinct. We later domesticated other horses. Horses were domesticated in the 1st place to be used by man for many purposes including transporting us & our goods. The reasons why horses were domesticated wasn't just because of their power but also because they have a similar intelligence to man in some ways like they can understand some of our language, they can follow a line of argument, they can remember things & they can make decisions based on what they know. There have been many books on horsemanship. The earliest surviving 1 was called "Peri Hippikes" or "Good Horsemanship" & was written by Xenophon. Xenophon believed that the best horsemen rode their horses intelligently & chose the right horse for their intended purpose. In Muslim countries horsemanship was called furisiyyah.

I think that if zoos are cruel because they keep animals in small spaces keeping pets is also cruel no matter how well you keep them & love them but because these animals have been domesticated so long they couldn't live in the wild. Our family have had & rescued a lot of animals as pets ourselves. I know I've only discussed ferrets & horses but realise there are lots of other pets with dogs being the most common.What do you think?

 

[mrzz]

Interesting question. My premise on the answer is that if you take of the liberty of a creature which is minimally intelligent, you are being cruel. The only caveat would be if you were doing so in order to preserve this very creature's life, because itself has no judgment to do so (for example, sedate and keep in a cage an injured wild animal while it recovers).

Domesticating animals was done purely on human's necessities. Whatever happened to the animals was the price to pay for our needs. So it was at least careless and selfish (could not find a better word in (my) English). It is a giant leap of faith to believe that any consideration for the animals was a significant part of the domestication process. Another one would be to believe that the animals were better off once domestication was established (maybe some particular cases).

A very interesting question, specially if we care to answer it honestly is: assuming that we admit that it was indeed cruel, was it worth it? Because probably the domestication of animals was a necessary step in human technological evolution (in a lot of senses). So, another small premise, domestication is a price to pay for our current state of development.

Of course that the question "could we get here by other means" is important. But, again, I think it is very important that we are able to answer the previous question (was it worth it) honestly. There is an inherent selfishness in being alive that cannot be forgotten. Where we draw the line is the whole point.

 

[Horsa]

Interesting question. My premise on the answer is that if you take of the liberty of a creature which is minimally intelligent, you are being cruel. The only caveat would be if you were doing so in order to preserve this very creature's life, because itself has no judgment to do so (for example, sedate and keep in a cage an injured wild animal while it recovers).

Domesticating animals was done purely on human's necessities. Whatever happened to the animals was the price to pay for our needs. So it was at least careless and selfish (could not find a better word in (my) English). It is a giant leap of faith to believe that any consideration for the animals was a significant part of the domestication process. Another one would be to believe that the animals were better off once domestication was established (maybe some particular cases).

A very interesting question, specially if we care to answer it honestly is: assuming that we admit that it was indeed cruel, was it worth it? Because probably the domestication of animals was a necessary step in human technological evolution (in a lot of senses). So, another small premise, domestication is a price to pay for our current state of development.

Of course that the question "could we get here by other means" is important. But, again, I think it is very important that we are able to answer the previous question (was it worth it) honestly. There is an inherent selfishness in being alive that cannot be forgotten. Where we draw the line is the whole point.

I agree with what you are saying to a point.

I wouldn't say that we needed to domesticate animals exactly though but we chose to do it because it made our lives easier & we got the "aww" factor.

I think you get my point & that the answer to my question which isn't quite as easy as it seems is that domestication was cruel to start with as we took animals out of their natural habitats to make our own lives easier or in some cases because we got the "aww" factor but because of how things are now these animals wouldn't be able to live wild today so keeping pets isn't cruel today if they're kept right & well-loved.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Enclosure -------- wall

Domestication ------- naturalization

 

[Horsa]

Enclosure -------- wall

Domestication ------- naturalization

That's a very simplistic way of putting it. Enclosures aren't always walls but are restricted spaces with fences or whatever. Pets are kept in smaller spaces than zoos keep wild animals in. If domestication was naturalisation, animals like horses wouldn't have been domesticated in the 1st place. Horses don't naturally carry people & goods.

 

[mrzz]

Enclosure -------- wall

Domestication ------- naturalization

Trump -- Tarzan?