Doping: Cycling, Tennis and other sports

[britbox]

This thread is a spin-off from the brief discussion about Lance Armstrong and Alberto Contador in the Paris Sidewalk discussion... Didn't want to derail that thread, so thought I'd start a new one. It's mainly about Cycling but touches on Tennis.

They all dope.

In one form or another they all dope. and there are endless ways to avoid detection.


That does not mean that lance and contador were not the best cyclists on the planet.

Doping does not make you a better cyclist. doping might heal your body faster or help you recover faster but does it really matter since they all dope in one form or another.

I agree that *most* top cyclists still probably dope... probably not all of them in the peleton do, and not all of them ever did... just the majority... albeit to different degrees.

The last part - "Doping does not make you a better cyclist". It does... and Lance and Contador may not have been the best cyclists on the planet.

I followed this sport for years closely and have a lot to write about cyling and doping and then we'll talk tennis and doping.

I'd prefer people didn't accuse anyone of doping who hasn't been caught either... it's easy enough to debate without needing to. If you do, then it's your view alone and not the view of this board.

 

[mrzz]

I am with BB on this. Doping can surely give you the edge, and it is particularly true on top level professional sports, were margins are so small. And, about cycling, recover your body faster is exactly what you want on a "tour de France", for example.

 

[britbox]

First, Doping does not make you a better cyclist is a myth.

We'll start with Lance...

Lance was a good cyclist even without doping. It's difficult to make one of the top pro teams without being a good cyclist.

Lance was better than good. He was a top classics rider, one day eventer and decent in the small (few day) tours.... but nobody regarded him as a cyclist who would ever win a grand tour (3 week tours such as the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia or the Vuelta (Spain) ). Maybe win a stage or two (which he did) but never in contention for the overall General Classification.

In 1993, Lance won 10 one-day events and stage races... and won the World Championship (a one day event). Yes, he was good... more than good. But not a grand tour contendor... totally different classification of cyclist.

His results in the Tour De France:

1993: Did Not Finish
1994: Did Not Finish
1995: 36th
1996: Did Not Finish

This is Miguel Indurain blowing past Lance in one the 1994 TDF Time Trials:



Indurain was almost certainly one of the EPO generation of 1990s cycling. I did say not to name names but that's really as far as tennis players are concerned. Indurain was in Team Banesto who used the services of Dr. Francesco Conconi, the Godfather of Blood Doping.

Armstrong was later to use the services of Michele Ferrari, Conconi's star pupil.

Conconi and Ferrari

So Lance, already a top cyclist couldn't get anywhere near the General Classification at the Tour De France in his pre-doping years. I use the term lightly as they were probably doping to some degree (amphetamines, steroids, HGH etc) but EPO and blood manipulation was a game changer in cycling.

It certainly was for Lance... when he got involved with a co-ordinated doping programme with the best doctor in the business he went on to win 7 Tour De France titles. The doctor was Ferrari.

Conclusions: Blood manipulation changed everything in cycling.

 

[britbox]

Armstrong and Greg Lemond

Greg Lemond was a three time Tour De France champion and huge cycling star. The first American to ever win the Tour De France. He won the Tour in 86 89 and 1990... He got shot by his brother-in-law in a hunting accident that ruled him out of the Tour De France in 87 and 88 (he nearly died).

In 85, he probably could have won the tour but was ordered to wait for his team captain Bernard Hinault... and thus Hinault won that tour, Lemond finishing second. Lemond could possibly have won as many as 5 or 6 tours if all things had been equal.

VO2 Max

Lemond had a natural VO2 Max of 92.5 - the second highest ever recorded at the time by any athlete from ANY sport ever. He was a natural phenomenon. Note: Armstrong was generally recorded around 80-84 VO2 Max.

WTF is VO2 Max?

Wiki Definition: VO2max stands for maximal oxygen uptake and refers to the amount of oxygen your body is capable of utilizing in one minute. It is a measure of your capacity for aerobic work and can be a predictor of your potential as an endurance athlete.

How EPO changed cycling

Lemond and his "Z" team won the Tour in 1990. Lemond won the General Classification and the "Z" team won the team event. A year earlier in 89 when Greg returned to the sport after his near death experience, he won the Tour with a terrible team, because none of the big teams were sure what he had left. Anyone who knows a jot about cycling will tell you how hard winning a tour without a team is. Your team protects you, chases down breakaways, paces you up climbs, and a bunch of other duties. Very few cyclists have won a grand tour without a decent team behind them. Lemond did.

Roll onto 1991... when EPO first started becoming prevalent in the peleton... Lemond who thought he was in great form, finished seventh. The team finished nowhere. Blood manipulation changed everything.

In Lemond's last tour, he even got ridden off the back of the peleton on a flat stage... This was a supreme athlete. Lemond had fallen victim to what is now known as "passive doping".... The clean ones push themselves that hard to keep up with the dopers it ends up ruining them.

By the way, Lemond's win in 1989 was the stuff of legend. He won the tour on the final time trial.



How do we know Lemond wasn't doping?

His incredible natural physiology combined with the fact that there was never a whiff of any doping allegations at any point in his career. No connections to dodgy doctors, no team doping scandals and he also refused to join any team with a hint of any doping programme .

Cyrille Guimard (French Cycling legend - team manager) stating "Lemond was one who could win without preperation". Well, he could win before EPO ravaged the sport.

Lance and Greg Lemond

Lemond fell out with Armstrong when Greg said Lance's achievements were either the greatest ever or the greatest fraud ever. In a recorded conversation, Armstrong said he would find ten people who would say Greg doped. He didn't find any. Nobody came forward and that was after being summoned by the most powerful man in cycling at the time.

Armstong didn't stop there... he made it his business to ruin Greg Lemond's business interests. Trek made Armstrong bikes and Lemond bikes. After Lance got in touch out of spite, they binned Greg and stopped making Lemond bikes.

 

[Carol]

What about Eddy Merckx considered the greatest and most successful rider in the history of cycling was caught in three separate doping incidents during his career or the rumors of motorized doping about others riders or Frank Schleck was suspended for 12 months following a positive test and etc etc etc ? yep, many 'doctors' and blood manipulation all around the world .
And talking about The Tour of France, I'm sure that they never catch a French rider.......yeah..... whatever

 

[britbox]

What about Eddy Merckx considered the greatest and most successful rider in the history of cycling was caught in three separate doping incidents during his career or the rumors of motorized doping about others riders or Frank Schleck was suspended for 12 months following a positive test and etc etc etc ? yep, many 'doctors' and blood manipulation all around the world .
nd talking about The Tour Of France, I'm sure that they never catch a French rider.......yeah..... whatever

Cycling is littered with doping scandals from Day One... I'm not sure what your point is... do you want me to name every cyclist who ever doped? I don't think there is enough room on this web server

Yes, Merckx doped and most of them doped... but Merckx was pre-EPO era when the advantages of doping were far less.

Taking amphetamines is a far different than taking EPO when considering performance. I'm in the middle of writing a post which explains EPO. Stay tuned.

 

[Bert]

What about Eddy Merckx considered the greatest and most successful rider in the history of cycling was caught in three separate doping incidents during his career or the rumors of motorized doping about others riders or Frank Schleck was suspended for 12 months following a positive test and etc etc etc ? yep, many 'doctors' and blood manipulation all around the world .
nd talking about The Tour Of France, I'm sure that they never catch a French rider.......yeah..... whatever

Talking about French riders, you forget the 'Festina' case which was the biggest case before Lance Armstrong, with Richard Virenque suspended. Last French winner was Hinault in 1985 that may explain why they are not caught for doping as well

 

[britbox]

EPO, Blood Doping and a Level Playing Field

OK, it's been said on various occasions, that if all the athletes take drugs, then it all evens out?

That's also a myth.

EPO - What is it?

Erythropoietin is a hormone that is produced by the kidneys to promote the formation of red blood cells.
Red blood cells transport oxygen around the body.

The haematocrit level of a person measures your level of cells in blood. In short, the more cells you have the more efficient your body is in delivering oxygen around your system.

Cyclists and many other athletes have used EPO and Blood Manipulation to boost their haematocrit levels for performance.

What kind of perfomance benefits are we looking at?

In the 1990s, EPO was an absolute game changer in cycling... there was no comparison to amphetamines, testosterone or anything like it before.

Average cyclists became much better over night.

A clinical lab study of non-elite non-pro cyclists using EPO identified a 54% performance increase.

http://sportsscientists.com/2007/11/the-effect-of-epo-on-performance/

Now, I suspect at the elite end the performance benefits would have been less than that, but the spike in performance in cycling was insane.

The correlation of EPO use is well documented in cycling... journeyman Bjarne Riis (Mr 60%), Marco Pantani, Lance and a bunch of others experiencing massive performance spikes... all winners of the Tour De France.

So what.. everybody benefits, yeah?

Well, no.

Cycling later capped haematocrit levels to 50%... if you were over then you were almost certainly doping. They brought this in because some cyclists had doped too heavily and died. Their blood like treacle.

OK, so let's assume Cyclist 1 has a natural haematocrit level of 39% and Cylist 2 has a natural haematocrit level of 47%... which cyclist benefits the most from doping?

Cyclist 1 dopes up to 50% (an 11% increase) and Cyclist 2 dopes up to 50% (a 3% increase). Cyclist 1 has far more to gain from doping.

It levelled the playing field all right... the physically inferior athlete (as far as blood cells go) got a much better boost from EPO doping.

 

[Carol]

Talking about French riders, you forget the 'Festina' case which was the biggest case before Lance Armstrong, with Richard Virenque suspended. Last French winner was Hinault in 1985 that may explain why they are not caught for doping as well

Yep, I forgot to say that there are not too many susccesful French riders and even that....I don't know ...

 

[britbox]

Talking about French riders, you forget the 'Festina' case which was the biggest case before Lance Armstrong, with Richard Virenque suspended. Last French winner was Hinault in 1985 that may explain why they are not caught for doping as well

Yeah, the Festina scandal was massive. It was also an opportunity for cycling to clean it's stables.... then the following year doped up Lance won the tour.

But on the subject of France... it has tough anti-doping laws... it's a criminal offence. Which is why a lot of cyclists trained in Italy and Spain and their Islands. Also bear in mind that the Festina scandal was uncovered by the French Police. They didn't brush it under the carpet... or order evidence to be destroyed.

 

[britbox]

Yep, I forgot to say that there are not too many susccesful French riders and even that....I don't know ...

The consequences of getting caught doping in France are more severe than most other European countries.

 

[britbox]

These are just the ones who got caught between 1996 and 2006...

Who's left?

Kloden never tested positive for doping but he later reached an agreement with German prosecutors and paid an unspecified amount to a children's charity to bring an end the investigation.

Bobby Julich... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exclusive-bobby-julich-doping-confession/

Fernando Escartin... named as Conconi (dope doctor client) - http://www.cyclingrevealed.com/Nov12/TdFChamps_Info.html

 

[Carol]

The consequences of getting caught doping in France are more severe than most other European countries.

I've never heard that before
Anyway I think that there many politic movements all around these cyclist issues and consequences

 

[britbox]

Getting caught

OK, massive doses of EPO, Steroids, HGH and stuff are in the past. The new vogue is micro-dosing. Smaller boosts that leave the system in 12-18 hours.

So, the window is pretty small to catch a doper... and most of this stuff requires a blood test rather than urine.

Tennis:

If an out-of-competition test is attempted but the player is not located, it is not shown as a test... but you get a strike against you. Three strikes counts as a failed test... and those three strikes have to be within 18 months.

If you're taking you just vanish when the dope tester turns up (if you can)... at least twice and then stop taking... pass the test, pass go and pick up $200. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Mastoor]

So, they can't catch them unless they are tested twice a day? Do you know where they invented it?

 

[britbox]

If they find you then you are obliged to take the test or you've failed it. If they can't find you then you can get away with not being found twice.

 

[Mastoor]

I knew it was all political. My nose told me and now I read an article written by Oxford professor, specialist on evidence based medicine


http://www.cebm.net/sharapova-drug-story-whats-evidence-part-2-2/

 

[Federberg]

wow....

https://au.eurosport.com/cross-coun...era-doping-during-raid_sto7165812/story.shtml

 

[britbox]

wow....

https://au.eurosport.com/cross-coun...era-doping-during-raid_sto7165812/story.shtml

Good post. Doping is pretty rife in cross-country skiing. Glad the skunk got caught red-handed.

 

[britbox]

I'm glad you brought up this post actually because I mentioned Spain and doping in cycling 3 years ago. On other forums, I can go back 15 years. On a recent thread, Moxie stated the only reason I mentioned Spain was some vendetta against Rafael Nadal.