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Federberg

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5 wins and 4 draws in 9 games here. Very impressive - or unimpressive, depending on how the games were. I remember a few years ago Carlsen and Caruana played 12 straight draws. It was the end of chess, some people said. Too mechanical and predictable.

Then along came Nepo… :lol6:
The match between carlsen and caruana was pretty much flawless. This one, while more entertaining is far from that.
 
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Federberg

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Can we honestly say that the play of either of these guys truly merits title of World Champion? It' exciting stuff for sure.. but... but...
 
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Kieran

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Can we honestly say that the play of either of these guys truly merits title of World Champion? It' exciting stuff for sure.. but... but...
If anything, it highlights their inadequacies. We saw Nepo’s inadequacies clearly in the last championship match with Magnus, and there’s nothing here to suggest that Magnus was wrong to withdraw from the championship match, given the reasons he gave…
 

Kieran

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I like watching these matches with Stockfish analysis. Stockfish can be cruel towards limited grandmaster humans, but very funny too!

 

DarthFed

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lol! He's quite frank... he still doesn't trust Niemann


I don’t blame him or anyone for being suspicious of Niemann. A guy caught twice online who goes quickly from IM to Super GM is automatically going to be sus.

With that said, we have to acknowledge that the possibility that Niemann does not and has not cheated OTB has only gone up as his results have remained pretty consistent since the scandal broke out, both in classical and speed chess. At this point if he’s still cheating and getting away with it that’s incredible and I have no idea how he could pull that off.
 

Federberg

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I don’t blame him or anyone for being suspicious of Niemann. A guy caught twice online who goes quickly from IM to Super GM is automatically going to be sus.

With that said, we have to acknowledge that the possibility that Niemann does not and has not cheated OTB has only gone up as his results have remained pretty consistent since the scandal broke out, both in classical and speed chess. At this point if he’s still cheating and getting away with it that’s incredible and I have no idea how he could pull that off.
I think you’ve nailed all the key points there. 100% agree

oh… Hans is utterly obnoxious
 

Kieran

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I don’t blame him or anyone for being suspicious of Niemann. A guy caught twice online who goes quickly from IM to Super GM is automatically going to be sus.

With that said, we have to acknowledge that the possibility that Niemann does not and has not cheated OTB has only gone up as his results have remained pretty consistent since the scandal broke out, both in classical and speed chess. At this point if he’s still cheating and getting away with it that’s incredible and I have no idea how he could pull that off.
Brother Darth is back in the house! How are you? Niemann is a strange bloke - even for chess. He’s like a character from a Wes Anderson film. He seems permanently caught in the headlights but acts like he can’t see them, when he obviously can.

Carlsen is the most ordinary looking genius, isn’t he? Usually you see something fidgety or otherworldly about chess geniuses, like they could control the world through mind power, but he just looks like a competent bloke who can win from any position, without fuss. And without beads of pearls jammed up his arse..
 
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DarthFed

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Brother Darth is back in the house! How are you? Niemann is a strange bloke - even for chess. He’s like a character from a Wes Anderson film. He seems permanently caught in the headlights but acts like he can’t see them, when he obviously can.

Carlsen is the most ordinary looking genius, isn’t he? Usually you see something fidgety or otherworldly about chess geniuses, like they could control the world through mind power, but he just looks like a competent bloke who can win from any position, without fuss. And without beads of pearls jammed up his arse..
Hey buddy! Life is going alright, can’t complain too much, at least depending on the day haha. Hope it’s going well for you!

I totally agree about Niemann. I don’t mind villains in sports/games, in fact they are typically needed, but they have to have something about them that’s likable. I find nothing about Niemann likable and as mentioned before he is still highly suspicious given his history and meteoric rise a few years ago.

As for Magnus, I’m hoping he changes his mind about classical chess. Having a super young WC now in Gukesh is hopefully a spark to get him to take classical seriously again. I get Magnus’s point of view, but IMO classical chess is still most important and real chess, and that’s coming from a guy who only plays blitz on the internet!

A big part of Magnus legacy is that he is the best at all 3 time controls; classical, rapid and blitz, and has been for an extended period. That’s undoubtedly a big emphasis compared to previous generations when rapid and blitz were just nice little side events now and then. Anand was possibly a better speed player than Kasparov in their day, though that’s close. But either way, no one back then would say Anand was anywhere near Kasparov based on rapid/blitz skills. Nowadays it’s definitely a bigger part of the resume and even online play is important. So all this is to say Magnus’s resume is going to look different from Garry and others from the past. If Magnus does come back to classical and regain the title and hold it a bit I do believe that’d be big for him. I still have him below Kasparov mainly due to 20+ years at #1 and Garry having the title for 15 years with 5 title defenses. But it’s already debatable for reasons mentioned above. Magnus is awesome…different guy. Kasparov was an egotistical maniac, Magnus more a quiet genius but obviously you need a big ego to excel at chess.

I am a big fan of Gukesh’s game, that kid is dynamic, a human calculator that is not afraid to set the board on fire. Winning WC at that age is incredible, destroyed Kasparov’s record as youngest WC. I suppose that’s the only thing I can hold against him lol, don’t break my GOAT’s record like that.
 
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Kieran

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Hey buddy! Life is going alright, can’t complain too much, at least depending on the day haha. Hope it’s going well for you!

I totally agree about Niemann. I don’t mind villains in sports/games, in fact they are typically needed, but they have to have something about them that’s likable. I find nothing about Niemann likable and as mentioned before he is still highly suspicious given his history and meteoric rise a few years ago.

As for Magnus, I’m hoping he changes his mind about classical chess. Having a super young WC now in Gukesh is hopefully a spark to get him to take classical seriously again. I get Magnus’s point of view, but IMO classical chess is still most important and real chess, and that’s coming from a guy who only plays blitz on the internet!

A big part of Magnus legacy is that he is the best at all 3 time controls; classical, rapid and blitz, and has been for an extended period. That’s undoubtedly a big emphasis compared to previous generations when rapid and blitz were just nice little side events now and then. Anand was possibly a better speed player than Kasparov in their day, though that’s close. But either way, no one back then would say Anand was anywhere near Kasparov based on rapid/blitz skills. Nowadays it’s definitely a bigger part of the resume and even online play is important. So all this is to say Magnus’s resume is going to look different from Garry and others from the past. If Magnus does come back to classical and regain the title and hold it a bit I do believe that’d be big for him. I still have him below Kasparov mainly due to 20+ years at #1 and Garry having the title for 15 years with 5 title defenses. But it’s already debatable for reasons mentioned above. Magnus is awesome…different guy. Kasparov was an egotistical maniac, Magnus more a quiet genius but obviously you need a big ego to excel at chess.

I am a big fan of Gukesh’s game, that kid is dynamic, a human calculator that is not afraid to set the board on fire. Winning WC at that age is incredible, destroyed Kasparov’s record as youngest WC. I suppose that’s the only thing I can hold against him lol, don’t break my GOAT’s record like that.
Weak era buddy, that’s why Magnus can take a breather at the top. :lol6:

But seriously, he’s devalued the title of world champion. I know he had a point about the format, and we all remember the epic finals between Kasparov and Karpov, but those gruelling fights brought both men to the brink but also proved just how great Kasparov was, winning in the most exaggerated tightest test imaginable. I think Carlsen sees the shorter format with the tiebreak to decide as being akin to FIDE rigging the deck to create upsets?

Gukesh is definitely a breath of fresh air but it’s almost like he’s serving an apprenticeship. While he holds the most prestigious title, without facing the best player in the world.

Do you think if carlsen wanted the crown back, he’d have to go through the challenge rounds? I suppose he’d have to. I mean, how long can chess have no observable way of deciding who’s the world’s greatest player?
 
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Weak era buddy, that’s why Magnus can take a breather at the top. :lol6:

But seriously, he’s devalued the title of world champion. I know he had a point about the format, and we all remember the epic finals between Kasparov and Karpov, but those gruelling fights brought both men to the brink but also proved just how great Kasparov was, winning in the most exaggerated tightest test imaginable. I think Carlsen sees the shorter format with the tiebreak to decide as being akin to FIDE rigging the deck to create upsets?

Gukesh is definitely a breath of fresh air but it’s almost like he’s serving an apprenticeship. While he holds the most prestigious title, without facing the best player in the world.

Do you think if carlsen wanted the crown back, he’d have to go through the challenge rounds? I suppose he’d have to. I mean, how long can chess have no observable way of deciding who’s the world’s greatest player?
Yes, he has definitely devalued classical chess and the WC title. To Gukesh’s credit, he acknowledged that it doesn’t mean as much since Magnus is still clearly the best player in the world. I don’t know if it was the format that bothered Magnus, I just think he lacked the motivation and even referenced at the time that he wanted to focus more on getting to 2900 in classical. So even though he was bowing out as WC, he still planned on playing a good amount of classical chess to try to become the first to break the 2900 barrier.

However. Magnus has definitely played very little classical chess the past few years and in a recent interview with the Botez dolls he was very candid and mentioned that he believes his best days are past him. It may seem crazy to say that at age 34 in chess, but if he simply can’t be consistently motivated in classical then he’s probably right.

In a different interview around the time of the Gukesh-Ding match or just after he also said something really interesting; he believes classical doesn’t take as much talent as speed chess because you can make mistakes in classical and still survive. I don’t want to totally disagree with his logic but IMO it is way way easier to turn around a bad position in speed chess than it is in classical, at least as far as winning goes. Using Magnus as an example, if he’s going up against a considerably lesser player in blitz and has a very bad opening…decent chance he turns it around and wins. Same scenario in classical and even he is probably just drawing at best and depending on how bad it is he may struggle to do that. With games being so quick there are undoubtedly going to be big turnarounds where players throw away wins especially when time gets very low, even at the top level.

With that said, I think what Magnus was getting at is that if you lack understanding of a certain position you are more likely to have a major mistake in blitz compared to classical when the lack of understanding at top level may just lead to a bunch of very small mistakes that are difficult to exploit. Even going back 50+ years to Fischer he had the worry that classical chess would eventually die as almost all games at the top would be draws. And that was his reasoning for creating Fischer random chess which I should not have left out earlier as part of the resume. That is going to become bigger and bigger. However, classical chess still has a pretty healthy % of decisive games at the top level. So I think Magnus’s position is premature more than anything and maybe is just about him more than the state of the game itself.

Classical chess takes a lot of work, especially WC matches as well as candidate tournaments; and to answer your question, yes Magnus would have to win the candidate tournament to win the right to challenge for WC. Speed chess doesn’t take much work and it’s way more fun and of course it takes about 10 seconds to log onto the website and get a game going. For practicing classical you are either playing games against a program you can’t beat or just practicing openings, memorizing recent games, etc. and Magnus has been the top dog for well over a decade now, he became #1 in 2009 or 2010, so age 18 or 19. It’s a totally different subject but I have a feeling what we think of as peak age for chess players has rapidly changed. Magnus is a freak but he was still growing up with programs for a lot of his formative years which made it easier for him to develop quicker than the great players before him. Now it’s a totally different story… a 3 year old who learns chess is going to be learning from computers their whole lives and will play thousands and thousands of blitz games each year. They can access multiple top coaches over the internet, etc. So it’s way easier for teenagers to become elite players, and I think on the flip side most players will be past their best by mid-30’s going forward.

Anyways, I think what will really knock motivation into Magnus is losing #1. Obviously it will happen some day, unless he retires as #1 like Kasparov, and I believe it will be within the next couple years. Gukesh or 1 or more of the Indian Brigade are going to seriously challenge for #1 soon.
 
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Federberg

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I think it's unfair to say that Magnus has devalued the World Championship. I think he has faced a unique problem that no champion of prior eras faced. Computer programmes that are much much stronger than the strongest Grandmaster. In Kasparov's hey day, his edge was prep more than anything. In this era that doesn't exist anymore. In fact just to get to a neutral starting point you have to do so much work. That's just so you're not at a disadvantage. Magnus is absolutely correct. It's NOT a test of your innate chess superiority anymore. An inferior player that works hard enough might find a line that leads to a win by force. This is not something that would have happened in any other era. It is therefore logical for Magnus to want to advocate for a situation that takes computer assisted prep out of the equation. It's perfectly understandable to me that he would want to go for faster time controls or Fischer Random to put the chess back into the competitive fight. We can debate about whether the way he's trying go about it, is the correct way, BUT his motivation, to me, is actually a salute to the original tradition of what the World Championship was supposed to be.

I submit, it's not Magnus that has devalued the world championship. It's Stockfish and Leela and whatever other computer software that's been developed, and sadly it's only going to get worse
 
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DarthFed

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I still think we are many years away from classical chess being completely dead which to me is where you just have an absurdly high % of draws in top level chess. The recent WC match had 5 decisive games out of 14. Most tournaments still have a pretty healthy % of decisive results. Heck, Magnus is still easily the best classical player in the world and of course wins a good % of games. I get your point of view, I just think we aren’t there yet. Another indicator would be us seeing a bunch of 2800’s at once like dozens.
 

Federberg

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I still think we are many years away from classical chess being completely dead which to me is where you just have an absurdly high % of draws in top level chess. The recent WC match had 5 decisive games out of 14. Most tournaments still have a pretty healthy % of decisive results. Heck, Magnus is still easily the best classical player in the world and of course wins a good % of games. I get your point of view, I just think we aren’t there yet. Another indicator would be us seeing a bunch of 2800’s at once like dozens.
I agree with you, but I think that's Magnus's thinking. And it does make sense when you think about the stress, the work, the risk reward he has to face that no other world champion has ever faced before.

Re: the last world championship. It was very exciting, but.... that was more to do with the level than anything else don't you think? The two championships with Ding were sub-par compared to the ones Magnus experienced. The one against Caruana in particular was at an absurdly high level. Don't get me wrong, this last one was super entertaining
 
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DarthFed

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I agree with you, but I think that's Magnus's thinking. And it does make sense when you think about the stress, the work, the risk reward he has to face that no other world champion has ever faced before.

Re: the last world championship. It was very exciting, but.... that was more to do with the level than anything else don't you think? The two championships with Ding were sub-par compared to the ones Magnus experienced. The one against Caruana in particular was at an absurdly high level. Don't get me wrong, this last one was super entertaining
I definitely agree that the Carlsen WC matches were higher quality which we would expect as there are less errors coming from him than anyone else. The match with Caruana was amazing even despite it being all draws. The Karjakin match only had 1 win for each player, was not too entertaining and Magnus really struggled. Aside from that there were a lot of decisive games in Magnus’s WC matches as he played great and the overmatched opponents played pretty poorly to boot (Anand and Nepo).

I also really did like the Gukesh-Ding match, though it loses a little luster with Ding’s ridiculous blunder in the last game. Overall the match was solid before that blunder. Sure, there were plenty of mistakes, and I think Ding’s mental frailty was on display often, particularly showing when he was more than happy to simplify to a draw when he had good positions. And on the flip side Gukesh showed some nerves early and late but he responded well to the couple losses and ended up being more steady than his much older opponent.

The Ding-Nepo match was entertaining because it was so back and forth and they both were pretty piss poor. Ding obviously has well-documented mental issues to work through which seemed to stem from pressure he felt as WC. But ironically, Nepo is really the recent challenger that becomes a disaster in these WC matches. I like Nepo a lot but at this point I’d rather not see him in another WC match!
 
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