[Blog] Open Era Top Twenty

El Dude

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It has been awhile since I wrote a blog, but enjoy this one.

I have several year-end/new year blogs planned, so stay tuned.
 

Rational National

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El Dude said:
It has been awhile since I wrote a blog, but enjoy this one.

I have several year-end/new year blogs planned, so stay tuned.

Good read - I have to admit I was wincing at what the Rafa fans would think with him behind Novak, and then the Novak fans at him not (yet) being at the top table and then also Roger not being considered the GOAT would surely create blind rage amongst the fedfans - but as you said there is methodology over layed with your own subjectivity and thus should be taken in context.

That said I wondered if any thought had been given to legacy or to the value of the name (call it sports branding or whatever)?

The reason I ask is, and I appreciate that the nearer to the epicentre, the more you feel the shock - but there are some names in there who transcend the sport and are global superstars and icons and there are some that have created an in-country legacy that some, quite frankly haven't had that same reach

Maybe I am wrong or disparaging, but I don't see Rod Laver as someone who will leave as big an influence on the sport as Roger Federer, now that might be harsh, but is he someone non tennis or non sports fans know or have heard off - they know Jordan, Magic Johnson, Bird, Ruth, Mays, Pele, Maradona, Ali, Tyson, Bolt - wherever you go in the world and they know of and have heard of Federer - ok as I said he is more current and thus its natural that he is more well known, but he has arguably followed 2 golden eras before him and been the catalyst for the all-time era of era's.
 

El Dude

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Thanks for the reply. I hear you about legacy, and agree re: Laver and Federer--but think this is at least partially, if not largely, due to the context of time. Federer played in the era of the internet, and thus had far more saturation than Laver ever could have.

I also did not account for legacy in these rankings--not at all, actually. This is entirely about career accomplishments--greatness as a tennis player, not as an icon.

And yeah, fans of Roger, Rafa, and Novak could all take issue with my rankings. But I'm trying to be as objective as possible. Maybe fans of each will accuse me of being biased, but I really tried not to be. My subjectivity isn't about how I want the rankings to look, but what my best judgement is based upon the available information.
 

Fiero425

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Glancing at it, quite comprehensive! I can agree with the top 10, but those next 10 are very debatable! I wouldn't put Murray, Courier, Ashe, or Vilas anywhere near the top; maybe top 40! IMO, we can't skip the great champions of the past who ruled the tour just as much if not more so than Federer; players like Tilden, Gonzalez, Budge, and even Hoad who owned Laver, winning their 1st 7 or 8 matches! I know you narrowed it down to the OPEN Era, but even then I wouldn't put those guys so high! Too many other players accomplished more; including other #1's like Hewitt, Safin, and Kuerten! JMHO, but good job and worth saving to my blog! Thanks! :angel: :dodgy: :p :rolleyes: :ras:

- - http://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2016/08/fan-page-novak-nole-djokovic.html - -
 

El Dude

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Fiero, I challenge you to back up this notion that Hewitt, Safin and Kuerten "accomplished more" than Murray, Courier, Ashe and Vilas. My methodology is about accomplishment, and in order to get to a place where I have your three ranked above those four players, I have ignore a lot of data. In fact, the gap between the two groups is large enough that I just don't see an argument. The only thing Hewitt has over Murray, Ashe and Vilas is the two year-end #1s. But we must remember it was during one of the weakest periods in Open Era history. Safin? He could play at a high level but didn't back it up with any degree of constency. And Kuerten? Clay court specialist, just a bit higher than Bruguera and also #1 during a weak era.

Please give the argument that these three should be ranked higher--I'm honestly curious!
 

Fiero425

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I withdraw my opinion! Ashe is still not on my list w/ the spread of his 3 major spanning too long! He was a better amateur player IMO & even when he acquired the #1 ranking, it was fleeting taking advantage of Connors' "sophomore" season after winning 3 majors in '74! Borg was exhausted playing 5 long sets @ the WCT Chp vs Laver in '75 semi where Arthur followed up his Wimbledon win! He was a much better amateur player and I really liked his gam, but he was helpless on clay! He had some kind of heel defect! Safin is just another player I thought was the most gifted player; sans the air btw his ears! He should have been the Federer of his era; esp. after he annihilated Sampras in the final of USO in 2000! I truly disliked the game of Kuerten; so much like Rafa now where he excelled on clay alone even though holding #1 ranking for a while! :angel: :dodgy: :clap :p

- - http://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2016/08/fan-page-novak-nole-djokovic.html - -

- https://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2016/10/whats-up-topic-21-entries-1016-on.html?showComment=1479849995121#c8274873470381727278 - - Your post with my comments!
 

Mile

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Djoker at No.4, not bad. How much more slams to No.3 you think ?
 

El Dude

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Hard to say. There's still a sizable gap between #3 and #4 which would require a few more years of a high level from Novak. Maybe 3 Slams? If he gets to 15, he's at least in the top tier. If he wins five or more Slams, wins another year end #1 or two, to go along with the 40+ Masters and 80+ titles he's going to finish with, he's probably #1.

The problem with passing Rosewall is that he accumulated such a deep record: 133 titles and 23 Slams (including amateur, pro, and Open Era). Rosewall was probably the #1 player at year's end only a few times (3, according to Tennis Base), but he was one of the five best for about twenty years (19, according to TB...which is two more than #2 on the list, Tilden at 17, and six more than #3, Federer).

And of course it is hard to compare the context of the mid-50s to mid-70s. One thing that cannot be understated about Rosewall (and Laver) is that they adapted and excelled in whatever context they played in.

In the end, though, I think the tiers are more meaningful than the exact rankings. The first tier are the GOAT candidates. The second tier are the inner circle greats that are just on the edge of GOAT candidacy but missing some ingredient. The third tier are true greats but are clearly not the GOAT, for whatever reason. The fourth tier are the lesser greats, and the fifth tier are the borderline or near-greats.
 

Fiero425

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El Dude said:
Hard to say. There's still a sizable gap between #3 and #4 which would require a few more years of a high level from Novak. Maybe 3 Slams? If he gets to 15, he's at least in the top tier. If he wins five or more Slams, wins another year end #1 or two, to go along with the 40+ Masters and 80+ titles he's going to finish with, he's probably #1.

The problem with passing Rosewall is that he accumulated such a deep record: 133 titles and 23 Slams (including amateur, pro, and Open Era). Rosewall was probably the #1 player at year's end only a few times (3, according to Tennis Base), but he was one of the five best for about twenty years (19, according to TB...which is two more than #2 on the list, Tilden at 17, and six more than #3, Federer).

And of course it is hard to compare the context of the mid-50s to mid-70s. One thing that cannot be understated about Rosewall (and Laver) is that they adapted and excelled in whatever context they played in.

In the end, though, I think the tiers are more meaningful than the exact rankings. The first tier are the GOAT candidates. The second tier are the inner circle greats that are just on the edge of GOAT candidacy but missing some ingredient. The third tier are true greats but are clearly not the GOAT, for whatever reason. The fourth tier are the lesser greats, and the fifth tier are the borderline or near-greats.

The argument will come more about the lower tier than the top since numbers don't lie; esp. after a gen. or 2! :dodgy:

- - http://fiero4251.blogspot.com/2016/08/fan-page-novak-nole-djokovic.html - -