ATP rankings sucks!!!

[uchickenvn]

I believe rankings should reflex player's current ability. A higher-ranked player is expected to beat a lower-ranked one. If that's what ranking means then ATP ranking sucks. Look at it after Cincy 2014:

ATP Single Ranking

1 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 12,770 0 18
2 Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 10,670 0 20
3 Federer, Roger (SUI) 7,490 0 19
4 Wawrinka, Stan (SUI) 5,985 0 20
5 Ferrer, David (ESP) 4,765 1 26
6 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 4,225 1 20
7 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4,060 -2 24
8 Dimitrov, Grigor (BUL) 3,540 0 21
9 Murray, Andy (GBR) 3,150 0 19
10 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 2,920 0 21


How on earth is Berdych ranked 7, above Murray and Tsonga? He is not the player he used to be after French Open ( Berdych recent form ). I am sure more people will bet on Murray if he plays against Berdych right now. And Ferrer is at number 5? I know he just went to the Cincy Final but the players he beat on the way were not very impressive. ( Ferrer - Lastest Result )

No ranking is perfect but this Elo ranking makes more sense:

1 Novak Djokovic 10,762 186 / 24
2 Rafael Nadal 10,747 175 / 19
3 Roger Federer 10,606 152 / 32
4 Andy Murray 10,493 134 / 31
5 Stanislas Wawrinka 10,464 93 / 34
6 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 10,449 96 / 33
7 David Ferrer 10,409 126 / 42
8 Milos Raonic 10,401 79 / 31
9 Grigor Dimitrov 10,360 60 / 32
10 Marin Cilic 10,337 69 / 33
11 Tomas Berdych 10,321 115 / 41

More at: Elo Rankings

What do you think?

 

[Front242]

Berdych hasn't been great but neither has Murray so putting Murray at number 4 is equally pointless imo.

 

[uchickenvn]

You are right. But who should be at number 4 then? Stan was just going down hill since Monte-Carlo (Wawrinka Recent Form). Tsonga had an incredible tournament to crown the Roger Cup, beating the likes of Djokovic, Dimitrov, Federer and Murray too on the way but one-time victory is not enough and he failed to Youzhny right after that. Milos Raonic has improved alot recently but I don't think he is there head-and-shoulder with Murray yet. I mean, just image if Murray plays Raonic now, who will you pick as a winner?
It's all subjective but if you disagree, don't you dare to bet??? ( Fantasy Betting )

 

[mrzz]

Well, than there's an easy fix for the ATP rankings. Instead of considering one year, it should only consider two weeks. The top ranked guy will always be the guy who won the last tournaments.

Plus, Nadal would be number three hundred billions right now. Just perfect.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

There is no points system that can show you how a player (or a team) is doing right this minute. Take basketball, baseball, soccer...A team might be at the top because of a great run they had 3 months ago, but right now, they might be in the middle of a serious slump. They still deserve to be at the top for what they did 3 months ago. You need a chunk of time to correctly asses a player, or a team. In ATP, it is one year, revolving. In any other team sport, it is a season, always starting from scratch.

Either way, I don't think anything less than a year is meaningful.

 

[DarthFed]

It's not perfect but Berdych has actually been better than Murray the past 52 weeks as crazy as it seems. Same with putting Ferrer ahead of him. Moving Tsonga up would be a major case of getting caught up in a moment. Aside from Toronto he has been pretty much MIA the past year.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

There is no points system that can show you how a player (or a team) is doing right this minute. Take basketball, baseball, soccer...A team might be at the top because of a great run they had 3 months ago, but right now, they might be in the middle of a serious slump. They still deserve to be at the top for what they did 3 months ago. You need a chunk of time to correctly asses a player, or a team. In ATP, it is one year, revolving. In any other team sport, it is a season, always starting from scratch.

Either way, I don't think anything less than a year is meaningful.

There is a perfect system. :snigger Look at the college football. Don't count any points won on court.
Just let 25 pundits (such as Tignor and Bodo) vote on what should be the players rank and aggregate them
For good measure, throw in couple of computer rankings.

Finally introduce a separate ATP ranking and ITF ranking so that if people don't
like that somebody is #1 according to ATP, they can take their pick from ITF rankings.

 

[Front242]

You are right. But who should be at number 4 then? Stan was just going down hill since Monte-Carlo (Wawrinka Recent Form). Tsonga had an incredible tournament to crown the Roger Cup, beating the likes of Djokovic, Dimitrov, Federer and Murray too on the way but one-time victory is not enough and he failed to Youzhny right after that. Milos Raonic has improved alot recently but I don't think he is there head-and-shoulder with Murray yet. I mean, just image if Murray plays Raonic now, who will you pick as a winner?
It's all subjective but if you disagree, don't you dare to bet??? ( Fantasy Betting )

If Murray played Raonic right now, I'd pick Raonic and he also leads their h2h 4-2.

 

[Federberg]

I believe rankings should reflex player's current ability. A higher-ranked player is expected to beat a lower-ranked one. If that's what ranking means then ATP ranking sucks. Look at it after Cincy 2014:

ATP Single Ranking

1 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 12,770 0 18
2 Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 10,670 0 20
3 Federer, Roger (SUI) 7,490 0 19
4 Wawrinka, Stan (SUI) 5,985 0 20
5 Ferrer, David (ESP) 4,765 1 26
6 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 4,225 1 20
7 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4,060 -2 24
8 Dimitrov, Grigor (BUL) 3,540 0 21
9 Murray, Andy (GBR) 3,150 0 19
10 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 2,920 0 21


How on earth is Berdych ranked 7, above Murray and Tsonga? He is not the player he used to be after French Open ( Berdych recent form ). I am sure more people will bet on Murray if he plays against Berdych right now. And Ferrer is at number 5? I know he just went to the Cincy Final but the players he beat on the way were not very impressive. ( Ferrer - Lastest Result )

No ranking is perfect but this Elo ranking makes more sense:

1 Novak Djokovic 10,762 186 / 24
2 Rafael Nadal 10,747 175 / 19
3 Roger Federer 10,606 152 / 32
4 Andy Murray 10,493 134 / 31
5 Stanislas Wawrinka 10,464 93 / 34
6 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 10,449 96 / 33
7 David Ferrer 10,409 126 / 42
8 Milos Raonic 10,401 79 / 31
9 Grigor Dimitrov 10,360 60 / 32
10 Marin Cilic 10,337 69 / 33
11 Tomas Berdych 10,321 115 / 41

More at: Elo Rankings

What do you think?

I confess to being a bit amused by this. I respect the Elo system, but as an avid chess fan, I immediately thought of all the forum discussions about Kasparov vs Fischer, and rating inflation. People will never be satisfied no matter what system is implemented. By the way.. if you think Fedal wars are bad, you should see some of the Kasparov - Fischer discussions! :laydownlaughing

 

[DarthFed]

I believe rankings should reflex player's current ability. A higher-ranked player is expected to beat a lower-ranked one. If that's what ranking means then ATP ranking sucks. Look at it after Cincy 2014:

ATP Single Ranking

1 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 12,770 0 18
2 Nadal, Rafael (ESP) 10,670 0 20
3 Federer, Roger (SUI) 7,490 0 19
4 Wawrinka, Stan (SUI) 5,985 0 20
5 Ferrer, David (ESP) 4,765 1 26
6 Raonic, Milos (CAN) 4,225 1 20
7 Berdych, Tomas (CZE) 4,060 -2 24
8 Dimitrov, Grigor (BUL) 3,540 0 21
9 Murray, Andy (GBR) 3,150 0 19
10 Tsonga, Jo-Wilfried (FRA) 2,920 0 21


How on earth is Berdych ranked 7, above Murray and Tsonga? He is not the player he used to be after French Open ( Berdych recent form ). I am sure more people will bet on Murray if he plays against Berdych right now. And Ferrer is at number 5? I know he just went to the Cincy Final but the players he beat on the way were not very impressive. ( Ferrer - Lastest Result )

No ranking is perfect but this Elo ranking makes more sense:

1 Novak Djokovic 10,762 186 / 24
2 Rafael Nadal 10,747 175 / 19
3 Roger Federer 10,606 152 / 32
4 Andy Murray 10,493 134 / 31
5 Stanislas Wawrinka 10,464 93 / 34
6 Jo-Wilfried Tsonga 10,449 96 / 33
7 David Ferrer 10,409 126 / 42
8 Milos Raonic 10,401 79 / 31
9 Grigor Dimitrov 10,360 60 / 32
10 Marin Cilic 10,337 69 / 33
11 Tomas Berdych 10,321 115 / 41

More at: Elo Rankings

What do you think?

I confess to being a bit amused by this. I respect the Elo system, but as an avid chess fan, I immediately thought of all the forum discussions about Kasparov vs Fischer, and rating inflation. People will never be satisfied no matter what system is implemented. By the way.. if you think Fedal wars are bad, you should see some of the Kasparov - Fischer discussions! :laydownlaughing

Didn't know you were into chess Federberg. I know those discussions quite well, usually just mindless American idiots who tout Fischer in them. I too was thinking about that when I saw these tennis "elo ratings". Pretty amusing.

 

[Federberg]

^It's my first passion. I think I got more excited about Carlsen - Anand, than I have been about a slam, since the days of Edberg - Becker. I agree it's home bias where Fischer's concerned. Don't get me wrong, I thought the guy was incredible (and I have no clue who would have won such a match if they were both at their peaks). Not sure I can forgive him for not contesting Karpov. That would really have been something!

 

[DarthFed]

^It's my first passion. I think I got more excited about Carlsen - Anand, than I have been about a slam, since the days of Edberg - Becker. I agree it's home bias where Fischer's concerned. Don't get me wrong, I thought the guy was incredible (and I have no clue who would have won such a match if they were both at their peaks). Not sure I can forgive him for not contesting Karpov. That would really have been something!

Fischer was unbelievable, way ahead of his time but if we are talking who was the greater champion and ie the greatest player of all time you have to eliminate Bobby from such discussions for obvious reasons. Fischer-Karpov would have been incredible much like Karpov-Kasparov was though Kasparov's style is much different than Fischer's. I wasn't too excited for Carlsen-Anand, figured it would be one way traffic and it was. This year's rematch should be a little better IMO but Magnus will still win.

Do you play? If so, on the internet at all? (Yes I know we are off topic)

 

[Federberg]

I agree Fischer can't be considered the GOAT. I was excited about Carlsen - Anand because I just didn't know what Magnus would be like in match play. The re-match is going to be fascinating because Anand is playing like his old self again, and Magnus seems to be trying to play complicated positions for some weird reason. If he imposes his style on the match then he should win again, but it'll be much closer.

I used to play a lot, but now I'm more likely to be watching tournaments online, or watching youtube of classics. I simply don't have the time to play on the internet. I absolutely hate losing, so the investment in time that would be required to get me back to fighting fitness is untenable. I used to play club league level, but that was a lifetime ago What about you? (Apologies all! )

 

[DarthFed]

Similar to you I don't play much anymore. I have a business on the side that pretty much took me out of chess. After high school I still played a lot online but only to get ready for one big money tournament per year (had decent success in them). Might not be a surprise to you but I hate losing too. Nothing makes me feel less intelligent than losing a game of chess and nothing makes me more angry either. Those tournaments weren't for fun and leisure and the times I screwed up it was not pleasant to be around me as my parents would tell you.

If you are on ICC at all my username is SpartanKing on there...

 

[Federberg]

Similar to you I don't play much anymore. I have a business on the side that pretty much took me out of chess. After high school I still played a lot online but only to get ready for one big money tournament per year (had decent success in them). Might not be a surprise to you but I hate losing too. Nothing makes me feel less intelligent than losing a game of chess and nothing makes me more angry either. Those tournaments weren't for fun and leisure and the times I screwed up it was not pleasant to be around me as my parents would tell you.

If you are on ICC at all my username is SpartanKing on there...

Good to know. I've never signed up on there, as I didn't see the point. I do use Chess.com and Chessgames.com a lot though. Losing at chess is the absolute worst! Not sure if you saw Hikaru's loss to Magnus earlier on in the year (at Zurich I think). Poor guy must have been suicidal Talk about horrible match ups! If I do sign up in the future, I'll look you up

 

[DarthFed]

I'm on chess.com too, spartan0408. Don't really play on there ever anymore. Too many programs. I also go on chessgames a lot, don't post though. That loss was brutal, he has to wonder if he will ever beat Magnus in a classical game

 

[Federberg]

I'm on chess.com too, spartan0408. Don't really play on there ever anymore. Too many programs. I also go on chessgames a lot, don't post though. That loss was brutal, he has to wonder if he will ever beat Magnus in a classical game

Yup. I don't post either. I wonder if Wesley So will ever match the level of interest we see on his page. If number of pages was an indicator he'll be a 3,000 Elo player!

It's certainly going to be tough for Hikaru. He can be inaccurate sometimes. That's ok against just about anyone else, but when Magnus spots an error, he is so clinical. Hard to believe he won't sneak a win at some point though

 

[DarthFed]

Yeah players like Nakamura and Aronian just aren't quite sound enough to beat Magnus consistently. Aronian is an exciting player but at this point I think Magnus will have his number going forward. Naka probably will get a win but maybe not, and if it is 1-10 record or whatever it is still really embarrassing.

 

[Federberg]

Yeah players like Nakamura and Aronian just aren't quite sound enough to beat Magnus consistently. Aronian is an exciting player but at this point I think Magnus will have his number going forward. Naka probably will get a win but maybe not, and if it is 1-10 record or whatever it is still really embarrassing.

Particularly as Hikaru seems to see himself in very inflated terms. I agree about Aronian. He really is a major choker. I think Caruana is his most serious threat going forward. Haven't made up my mind about Giri yet

 

[Billie]

Similar to you I don't play much anymore. I have a business on the side that pretty much took me out of chess. After high school I still played a lot online but only to get ready for one big money tournament per year (had decent success in them). Might not be a surprise to you but I hate losing too. Nothing makes me feel less intelligent than losing a game of chess and nothing makes me more angry either. Those tournaments weren't for fun and leisure and the times I screwed up it was not pleasant to be around me as my parents would tell you.

If you are on ICC at all my username is SpartanKing on there...

What a shocker!!!