Alexander Zverev

[El Dude]

"Sascha" Zverev is the most exciting young player to come along since, I don't know, Juan Martin del Potro? He has leap-frogged an entire generation and is poised to be the next dominant player, after the Big Four fade away (whenever that will be).

Or is he? There's something about his game that bothers me. Well, not bothers me but doesn't inspire me. He doesn't seem all that...dynamic? I'm not sure what it is, but when I think of true greats, they all bring their own style to the court, even something new, and they all excel at something in a way that is unsurpassed by their peers. Think of Roger's grace and footwork, his deadly forehand and serve; Rafa's incredible defense and court coverage, his running shots and ridiculous topspin, and just his pure tenacity; or Novak's yogic agility, his backhand, defense, and return of serve.

But what about Zverev? He's got some weapons, but nothing stands out as "unsurpassed" in the game. All of the "holy trinity" have qualities that no one is better at, and a few that they're the very best at. But I don't see that from Zverev.

Now it isn't entirely fair to compare him to arguably the three greatest tennis players of all time. It might be more realistic to think of him in terms of the "lesser greats," like Boris Becker, Stefan Edberg, and Ivan Lendl. No shame in that!

But again, I don't find myself inspired when watching him. I see some excellent play, but nothing that just totally wows me. I feel differently about Denis Shapovalov, who isn't nearly as developed, but shows flashes of true greatness.

Anyhow, I'd love for those who have greater on-court knowledge than I to weigh in on this.

EDIT: I've added a poll.

 

[DarthFed]

Way too early to say he doesn't possess the weapons to become an all-time great. Let's remember that he is just 20 years old. Fed first won a major just shy of 22, Nole won his first around the same age Zverev is now (few months younger) and then regressed over the 2+ years until 2011. Rafa at age 20 was just a clay courter.

I think Sascha will be great, the only concern I have is he lacks concentration. I don't think it's about not being able to handle pressure, he just lacks the point-to-point focus needed to be elite. It's common for a young millennial not to be able to focus for more than a minute at a time. Aside from that it's about growing into his body. Zverev has faded in the second half of the last two seasons and that is mostly just weak legs and lack of fitness. That will come soon.

I think his backhand and serve are going to be huge weapons that will help him win multiple majors. I think it's always going to be a "gutsy" call to predict a young player to win 10+ majors in their career.

 

[britbox]

Yup, way too early to call it but I think he'll be a number #1 and win multiple majors. I think people need to water down their "right here, right now" expectations of some of these young players. I've rolled my eyes at some of the demands and expectations placed on these young guns once they've demonstrated some potential.

Zverev is doing just fine - he's in the Top 5 and just won two Masters yet I read comments like "he's crap in slams"... jeez, let's give him some fricken leeway - he's 20 years old.

Anyway, for the sake of the game, I'd take a wild guess that he wins between 2 and 8 and makes #1.

 

[britbox]

On weapons, Zverev has a top class backhand, easy power and a big serve. If he starts adding more variety to his serve, which I guess he will as he develops then that's going to be a big weapon.

 

[El Dude]

"Way too early" goes without saying. The point is to look at what we see now and extrapolate.

How about some votes?

 

[mrzz]

I voted for "excellent" which seems not much in these days of mega-multi major winners, but my shot is that from now on a lot of time will pass before the next 10+ major winner walks us by.

 

[Ricardo]

you have put the catogaries wrong, Sampras isn't the same group of Fedalvic, Borg is but he isn't.

 

[brokenshoelace]

This will sound like a contradictory statement but here goes:

I don't think the world of his talent at all. He's obviously very good, but not in a "can't miss" talent kind of way. However, I think he'll win majors just by virtue of the gap at the top once the guys who have been racking up majors for the last decade or so stop winning them, especially since as of right now, there doesn't seem to be anyone ready to step in and pounce.

To me, something is lacking to where I don't feel I HAVE to take notice when it comes to Zverev. Many times, when you watch a young player, they have obvious tangible skills that set them apart very quickly. I don't want to compare Zverev to any of the top 3 when they were younger in terms of abilities, because this obviously isn't fair to him. However, I want to bring up Andy Murray in his younger days just to highlight a point. When you watch Murray, even back in 2007 before he ever really broke out, you can see that he had something special. The movement, the shot selection, the variety, the touch, etc... I'm not talking strictly with the benefit of hindsight here, but seeing him take Nadal to 5 sets at the 2007 Australian Open at the time, it was easy to predict this guy will likely end up winning majors barring anything catastrophic. Now again, Zverev is likely to win some as well due to the reasons mentioned above, but that's a different story. I don't get the same vibe with Zverev as I did when I watched a younger Marat Safin play, for example. To me he has the solid top 10 player kind of talent, who will probably end up winning majors due to a post Fedal-Djokovic lull, rather than someone who will take what's his, so to speak.

 

[britbox]

^ One thing I see with Murray and Zverev having in common is desire, but I think Zverev's self-belief is greater than Murray had at that same age. Outside of that I feel they are completely different players.

I *do* get the same vibe with Zverev as I got when I saw a young Safin - namely, that they are going to win big ones... I think it was a Safin/Agassi match at RG where I thought this guy is really something special.

Safin really should have won a lot more - he had more to his game than Zverev - he had decent feel at the net, decent movement back then... but I think Zverev has much more on the intangibles like desire, confidence and attitude... I'm going to guess he goes onto win more than Marat.

 

[DarthFed]

Kind of surprised to hear people think Murray showed more promise than Zverev at age 20 (2007 for Andy). Back then I thought Andy was just a good mover and counterpuncher and he'd probably reach the top 5. I don't think most would have had him pegged for the career he's had and certainly not better than the career he's had.

Again it should be mentioned that Zverev is 20. If you were to tell me he will never move better than he currently does then I agree that his potential would be limited. But you add a little quickness and a good amount of strength and he is going to be monstrous.

 

[El Dude]

you have put the catogaries wrong, Sampras isn't the same group of Fedalvic, Borg is but he isn't.

Not in terms of career accomplishments, which is what I'm mainly talking about. But in terms of peak? Sure, but then what about McEnroe? His peak was about as high as anyone's.

Maybe I should have added another group near the top. If we combine the two - peak and career - then I'd probably use these groups:

A) Federer, Nadal, (Laver)
B) Djokovic, Sampras, Borg, (Rosewall)
C) McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Agassi
D) Becker, Edberg, Wilander
E) Courier, Murray, Ashe, Vilas
F) Wawrinka, Kuerten, Safin, Hewitt, etc
G) Ferrer, Davydenko, Nalbandian, etc

But this is way of topic.

 

[El Dude]

This will sound like a contradictory statement but here goes:

I don't think the world of his talent at all. He's obviously very good, but not in a "can't miss" talent kind of way. However, I think he'll win majors just by virtue of the gap at the top once the guys who have been racking up majors for the last decade or so stop winning them, especially since as of right now, there doesn't seem to be anyone ready to step in and pounce.

To me, something is lacking to where I don't feel I HAVE to take notice when it comes to Zverev. Many times, when you watch a young player, they have obvious tangible skills that set them apart very quickly. I don't want to compare Zverev to any of the top 4 when they were younger in terms of abilities, because this obviously isn't fair to him. However, I want to bring up Andy Murray in his younger days just to highlight a point. When you watch Murray, even back in 2007 before he ever really broke out, you can see that he had something special. The movement, the shot selection, the variety, the touch, etc... I'm not talking strictly with the benefit of hindsight here, but seeing him take Nadal to 5 sets at the 2007 Australian Open at the time, it was easy to predict this guy will likely end up winning majors barring anything catastrophic. Now again, Zverev is likely to win some as well due to the reasons mentioned above, but that's a different story. I don't get the same vibe with Zverev as I did when I watched a younger Marat Safin play, for example. To me he has the solid top 10 player kind of talent, who will probably end up winning majors due to a post Fedal-Djokovic lull, rather than someone who will take what's his, so to speak.

Good post. I think you're a bit more bearish on him than I am, but you echoed a lot of what I said above.

Regarding Murray, remember that he is one of two players to beat Roger in his best year, in 2006 at age 18-19. Shapo beating Rafa this year has a bit of that flavor.

 

[Moxie]

Also regarding Murray, he's not finished playing. I should think that he's on the cusp between Lesser Great and Almost Great. In this generation, he's been THE lesser great of some top all-timers. One more Major and I think you have to push him up a category for total resume and the competition he faced.

 

[mrzz]

Boy, I am REALLY rooting for Wawrinka to get one or two more....

 

[Moxie]

Boy, I am REALLY rooting for Wawrinka to get one or two more....

Because you hate Murray so much, or because you love Stan? Or are you just trying to mess with El Dude's categories? :lulz2:

 

[mrzz]

Because you hate Murray so much, or because you love Stan? Or are you just trying to mess with El Dude's categories? :lulz2:

Not El Dude's in particular, but yeah, generally speaking something like your third option, obviously (much more fun than the other two) . Iit would be such a headache to all self-proclaimed pundits out there. Good ol` Dude would be just "collateral damage".... but at least he would have fun trying to figure things out.

 

[Moxie]

Not El Dude's in particular, but yeah, generally speaking something like your third option, obviously (much more fun than the other two) . Iit would be such a headache to all self-proclaimed pundits out there. Good ol` Dude would be just "collateral damage".... but at least he would have fun trying to figure things out.

It's true that if Stan were to win 2 more, he'd be the outlier in anyone's understanding of post-30 tennis. It's very YOU to just want to fuck with that. Personally, I don't think Stan has it in him, and now that Magnus Norman is out, I have less faith. Now, back to topic, how do you like Zverev, as a player?

 

[El Dude]

Also regarding Murray, he's not finished playing. I should think that he's on the cusp between Lesser Great and Almost Great. In this generation, he's been THE lesser great of some top all-timers. One more Major and I think you have to push him up a category for total resume and the competition he faced.

Agree completely. I made the argument a month or two ago that he's closer to Wilander than he is to Courier/Ashe/Vilas/Kuerten, and got shredded for it.

 

[Moxie]

Agree completely. I made the argument a month or two ago that he's closer to Wilander than he is to Courier/Ashe/Vilas/Kuerten, and got shredded for it.

Anytime you champion Murray, you get shredded. It really surprises me, given that there are lots of Brits and Britsh ex-pats on these boards, how little love Andy gets.

 

[mrzz]

It's true that if Stan were to win 2 more, he'd be the outlier in anyone's understanding of post-30 tennis. It's very YOU to just want to fuck with that. Personally, I don't think Stan has it in him, and now that Magnus Norman is out, I have less faith. Now, back to topic, how do you like Zverev, as a player?

Oh, I like him. When he was around between #50-#100, he was one of the guys I cared to check the results and rooted to go up, so that came out all right. My take on him for the future I gave above, I think he is above average for sure, the only thing is that everyone will seem bellow average for a while because of those three freaks of nature.

His game is quite complete, no major flaws. He surely moves well for his size, but also for his size he could serve a bit better. Net game and forehand are for me the two aspects he still needs to step up.

He is not a head case, but I have seen him loose two or three matches simply by folding at the wrong time, so a bit of space to develop there too.