Agassi: Nadal best ever, not Federer

[Front242]

[split] Agassi: Nadal best ever, not Federer

Good old Agassi stirring the pot again. Sorry, but nah. Wait till both their careers are over before making such comments. He seems to forget the double standard that Nadal has done much outside Federer's prime too. Clever boy, Andre.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2014/05/agassi-goat-id-put-nadal-no-1-federer-no-2/51390/#.U2u-Nyg9C2U

Excerpt below is from tennis.com.

Agassi is quoted as saying that "I'd put Nadal No. 1, Federer No. 2," adding that "it's just remarkable to me what he has done, and he has done it all during Federer's prime."

The former No. 1 says "Nadal had to deal with Federer, (Novak) Djokovic, (Andy) Murray in the golden age of tennis. He has done what he has done and he's not done yet."

 

[Kieran]

RE: General tennis news

Well, he's possibly meaning that outside of Roger's prime, Rafa then had Djoker in his prime.

The big surprise is how sensible Dre has become...

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: General tennis news

Meh, I read this, and this debate has gotten old. Not to mention it's premature (I know, quite ironic that something supposedly premature can be old already).

 

[Kieran]

RE: General tennis news

Meh, I read this, and this debate has gotten old. Not to mention it's premature (I know, quite ironic that something supposedly premature can be old already).

:snigger That's true! And when it's no longer premature, it'll be really old!

 

[Front242]

RE: General tennis news

^ So true lol.

 

[bobvance]

RE: General tennis news

Good old Agassi stirring the pot again. Sorry, but nah. Wait till both their careers are over before making such comments. He seems to forget the double standard that Nadal has done much outside Federer's prime too. Clever boy, Andre.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2014/05/agassi-goat-id-put-nadal-no-1-federer-no-2/51390/#.U2u-Nyg9C2U

Excerpt below is from tennis.com.

Agassi is quoted as saying that "I'd put Nadal No. 1, Federer No. 2," adding that "it's just remarkable to me what he has done, and he has done it all during Federer's prime."

The former No. 1 says "Nadal had to deal with Federer, (Novak) Djokovic, (Andy) Murray in the golden age of tennis. He has done what he has done and he's not done yet."

I agree. The reasoning works both ways. Federer has had success in this "Golden Age" against the same opposition and while being past his prime. Also, to say that Nadal has done "it all during Federer's prime" is a stretch. Nadal dominated clay during Federer's prime and made more inroads everywhere else as Federer declined.

I'm not saying Nadal is not the best ever. His domination of the field with his record against top ten players, his domination of the head to head with Federer, and his success outside of the French including at the Olympics and in Masters 1000's are all very impressive things. It's more Agassi's underselling of Roger's accomplishments that I have an issue with.

 

[Kieran]

RE: General tennis news

Well, if anything, Andre is just being typical of people who buy into the modern game as being definitively the best. He's like a lot of commentators who bump today's greats to the head of the queue, maybe because they're freshest in the memory.

If there's a goat, it's not an endangered species, that's for sure, because you can spot a new one every few seasons...

 

[shawnbm]

RE: General tennis news

Poor Roger, if only he had been mediocre on clay and not reached any FO final other than 2009, he's have a 17-3 record in slam finals and likely 5-9 H2H with Rafa and Agassi would not be spouting what he is spouting. LOL

At any rate, Andre is entitled to his opinion--he's a HOFer after all. It certainly does not besmirch Federer to say Nadal is the GOAT (a concept I don't subscribe to in tennis); it only serves to put Roger in a very fine light, when you get down to it. I disagree with much of what Agassi says, but it likely has a tinge of wishing to swat his old rival (the great Pistol) just a bit me thinks.

 

[Kieran]

RE: General tennis news

Poor Roger, if only he had been mediocre on clay and not reached any FO final other than 2009, he's have a 17-3 record in slam finals and likely 5-9 H2H with Rafa and Agassi would not be spouting what he is spouting. LOL

At any rate, Andre is entitled to his opinion--he's a HOFer after all. It certainly does not besmirch Federer to say Nadal is the GOAT (a concept I don't subscribe to in tennis); it only serves to put Roger in a very fine light, when you get down to it. I disagree with much of what Agassi says, but it likely has a tinge of wishing to swat his old rival (the great Pistol) just a bit me thinks.

You know, buddy, I always scan what Dre says for tinges of the same. I didn't notice it so much here, but I tend to think it's never too far from the surface. As I often say about Andre, he's his daddy's son...

 

[Tennis Miller]

RE: General tennis news

Andre is wading into some murky waters. Rafa has a positive h2h over Nole, but it's thanks to a 13-3 advantage on clay, where Rafa is the undisputed GOAT, in my mind. Nole leads 14-7 on hards. On grass it's 2-1 Nadal, and that includes Wimby 2007 where Nole retired, but maybe shouldn't have even played because of injury

We all know context is key. If Nadal can master Nole in 2014-15, I think Andre may turn out to be right. But for now, Nole's 14-7 lead in hards is a pretty big question mark in Nadal's GOAT-ness status.

Cheers

TM

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: General tennis news

TM, as much it hurts me to say this as a huge Roger fan, clay is a very legit playing surface for tennis. Almost half the season is played on clay. So if YOU take clay out of the equation (and believe me I want to too), then someone else will take out grass (only a month of the season), or indoor hards( too fast), etc...That argument goes nowhere fast.

Overall achievement is the only subjective way in my opinion, and even then you have to look at each era separately.

 

[DarthFed]

RE: General tennis news

TM, as much it hurts me to say this as a huge Roger fan, clay is a very legit playing surface for tennis. Almost half the season is played on clay. So if YOU take clay out of the equation (and believe me I want to too), then someone else will take out grass (only a month of the season), or indoor hards( too fast), etc...That argument goes nowhere fast.

Overall achievement is the only subjective way in my opinion, and even then you have to look at each era separately.

Yeah I've never understood the idea of "taking out clay" or any other surface. Roger's big failings against Nadal have come on grass and hard courts. He was "supposed" to win those or, at the very least, a significant more amount than he has won.

 

[Tennis Miller]

RE: General tennis news

I'm not taking clay out of the equation. I'm talking about putting the h2h with Nole in context. Nadal is the clay GOAT, but in my mind needs a few more non clay slams, more weeks at #1, and a better record vs Nole on hards to be the overall [fictional] GOAT. To think otherwise is, in my view, actually OVERweighting clay.

By the way, I think the point about grass being only a 3 week surface is valid, for context, as well.

Also, by the way, an argument that slides clay toward "almost half the season" takes some liberties with the idea of "rounding up". 1 out of 4 slams is on clay, and 3/9 Masters are on clay. (3/10 if you include the YEC).

Cheers
TM

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: General tennis news

I'm not taking clay out of the equation. I'm talking about putting the h2h with Nole in context. Nadal is the clay GOAT, but in my mind needs a few more non clay slams, more weeks at #1, and a better record vs Nole on hards to be the overall [fictional] GOAT. To think otherwise is, in my view, actually OVERweighting clay.

By the way, I think the point about grass being only a 3 week surface is valid, for context, as well.

Cheers
TM

But I am only EQUAL weighing everything. You say Nadal has to turn the hard court H2H around, and a Nadal fan will say Nole has to turn the clay H2H around.

More weeks at number 1, I agree, because that is an overall achievement against the whole field, and an objective measure.

 

[Tennis Miller]

RE: General tennis news

I'm not taking clay out of the equation. I'm talking about putting the h2h with Nole in context. Nadal is the clay GOAT, but in my mind needs a few more non clay slams, more weeks at #1, and a better record vs Nole on hards to be the overall [fictional] GOAT. To think otherwise is, in my view, actually OVERweighting clay.

By the way, I think the point about grass being only a 3 week surface is valid, for context, as well.

Cheers
TM

But I am only EQUAL weighing everything. You say Nadal has to turn the hard court H2H around, and a Nadal fan will say Nole has to turn the clay H2H around.

More weeks at number 1, I agree, because that is an overall achievement against the whole field, and an objective measure.

Sorry, I edited my earlier post while you were replying. I don't think anyone is arguing that Nole is the GOAT, so a lopsided h2h in his favor works more against Rafa's GOATness, in my view. The next two years will tell...

Cheers
TM

 

[El Dude]

(Deleted because it doesn't make sense in the context of the merged threads)

 

[brokenshoelace]

RE: General tennis news

Andre is wading into some murky waters. Rafa has a positive h2h over Nole, but it's thanks to a 13-3 advantage on clay, where Rafa is the undisputed GOAT, in my mind. Nole leads 14-7 on hards. On grass it's 2-1 Nadal, and that includes Wimby 2007 where Nole retired, but maybe shouldn't have even played because of injury

The "injury" was blisters. Let's not overstate it. That was still back in Nole's "someone breathed on me so I'll retire" phase.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I promise to stay out of posting in this thread. So please everybody don't say something too provocative to where I have to respond!

 

[Tennis Miller]

RE: General tennis news

Andre is wading into some murky waters. Rafa has a positive h2h over Nole, but it's thanks to a 13-3 advantage on clay, where Rafa is the undisputed GOAT, in my mind. Nole leads 14-7 on hards. On grass it's 2-1 Nadal, and that includes Wimby 2007 where Nole retired, but maybe shouldn't have even played because of injury

The "injury" was blisters. Let's not overstate it. That was still back in Nole's "someone breathed on me so I'll retire" phase.

So which way does that cut here? Does that make it one of those "weak competition" victories that many like to discount? To me, the most important fact is that Rafa owns 2 Wimby titles to Nole's 1, so he gets the edge on grass.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

RE: General tennis news

The "injury" was blisters. Let's not overstate it. That was still back in Nole's "someone breathed on me so I'll retire" phase.

But what if they ate a lot of garlic and had a couple of beers? That would almost be legit in my book