A Worrisome Comparison for Alex Zverev

El Dude

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With Alex "Sascha" Zverev's 3R defeat, the promising #4 in the world still has been unable to reach the QF of a Slam. As I mentioned elsewhere, every 6+ Slam winner in the Open Era--which is as good as any parameter to separate the true greats from the almost-greats and very good--has reached a Slam QF before turning 21. Sascha turns 21 in April, a month before the next Slam. Of course precedents can and do change, but the more worrying sign is that he doesn't seem well-suited to five-set matches, at least not yet.

There is another player who showed early promise yet struggled to go deep in Slams: Tomas Berdych. Berdych won his first (and only) Masters at the tender age of 20 years old--the same as Sascha--yet never won another. He didn't reach his first Slam QF until the 2007 Wimbledon when he was 21, and his second a few years later at the 2010 Roland Garros at 24. Berdych has been a mainstay in the top 10 from 2010 through 2016, finally dropping to #19 at the end of 2017. He is pretty much the definition of "second tier player" - frequently reaching Slam QFs and SFs, winning 13 titles overall, but not winning a Slam and only that lone Masters.

Berdych is a fine player, but not a great one and pretty much Zverev's worst-case scenario (barring injury). Like Zverev, Berdych has a big game--with a powerful forehand, strong backhand and serve, and can move pretty well for a big guy. His big problem is his mental game - like Zverev.

Now Sascha is still only 20 so has a lot of years ahead of him. But while his youth means he has time to figure things out, the flip-side is that time also establishes patterns. He can look at Berdych as an example of a talented player who wasn't able to improve his main weakness, and when that weakness is not mechanical or physical, it can be even more difficult to change.

Perhaps at this point we can hope that Sascha's main problem is that he needs to develop greater stamina. Right now he's 14-13 in his career in GS matches, including 2-1 at the AO.

Of those 27 matches, he's in 7-3 in three-setters, 4-6 in four-settlers and 3-4 in five-setters. Perhaps we can see the difference in that he's 7-10 in four or five setters. So there could be a stamina problem, and his being bageled in the fifth set vs. Chung supports that (I didn't watch the match, so don't know if he looked gassed). But I don't think it is only stamina.

Anyhow, let's see how it develops; stamina can be developed, he's probably a year or two away from his peak, and may only need that one victory to turn the corner and feel confidence. But the "Berdych Scenario" is one possibility.

In ten years we could look back and see a similar career to Berdych's, although I think somewhat better: not only will he have many prime years without the Big Three around, but he's better now than Berdych was at the same age (2005-06); so he'll probably have more Slam opportunities. Or we could look at one of the dominant players of the decade, a half dozen or so Slam titles, a bunch of Masters, and a year-end #1 or three.

We shall see.
 

britbox

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Relax with Zverev guys - his time will come. I followed him for a while and predicted he'd be Top 20 when he we was 20... at the time he was 100+ in the rankings. The Top 5 slot he occupies is generous - largely because of the injury epidemic but he's a legit Top 10... at least when you take away kneejerk reactions from an immediate loss.

He won't be worried whether he's a lesser great, a great great or a great grandmother right now. He's learning the trade. I strongly feel over the next 10-15 years this guy will be on the winners podium at a grand slam event and have a stint at number one.

When we start talking about winning slams like winning cherry cakes at a gala we're entering a different conversation. The first one is the critical one.
 
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El Dude

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I agree, britbox. It was just an interest similarity in their early careers that I thought worth sharing. I continue to think that the question is not whether Zverev will win Slams or not, but how many.
 

mrzz

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but not a great one and pretty much Zverev's worst-case scenario (barring injury).

Well, surely this sounds quite reasonable, and while I agree with BB's post above, there is one scenario which is even worst: he could slowly fade away and stay inside the top 10 for much less time than Berdych. If all top boys get healthy, the competition for top 10 is heavy. Big 3 +1 +1 can fill up the top 5 (even waiting for Murray and Wawrinka to return), Raonic and Nishikori could return to their past levels (that took them to major finals), there is del Potro and Cilic (major winners), there is also Dimitrov and Thiem, not to mention Berdych himself, Tsonga and a few of the young players coming in (Rublev and Chung come to mind). Oh, and of course, Kyrgios (B-) ). My point is that if (I know this is a big if) most people on this group are playing well, it is not a given that Zverev will definitely be ahead of them. And, in two or three years, maybe other guys rise to the challenge and become elite, Wawrinka style...

As we discussed in other threads (and agreed), sometimes I think we take for granted things that are far more difficult than we suppose. To be a perennial top 10 is a hell of an accomplishment, and only in the internet this is seen as being "a loser". There are far worst scenarios than that... (not that they are likely, but you got my point).
 

El Dude

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Well, surely this sounds quite reasonable, and while I agree with BB's post above, there is one scenario which is even worst: he could slowly fade away and stay inside the top 10 for much less time than Berdych. If all top boys get healthy, the competition for top 10 is heavy. Big 3 +1 +1 can fill up the top 5 (even waiting for Murray and Wawrinka to return), Raonic and Nishikori could return to their past levels (that took them to major finals), there is del Potro and Cilic (major winners), there is also Dimitrov and Thiem, not to mention Berdych himself, Tsonga and a few of the young players coming in (Rublev and Chung come to mind). Oh, and of course, Kyrgios (B-) ). My point is that if (I know this is a big if) most people on this group are playing well, it is not a given that Zverev will definitely be ahead of them. And, in two or three years, maybe other guys rise to the challenge and become elite, Wawrinka style...

As we discussed in other threads (and agreed), sometimes I think we take for granted things that are far more difficult than we suppose. To be a perennial top 10 is a hell of an accomplishment, and only in @Fiero425's mind this is seen as being "a loser". There are far worst scenarios than that... (not that they are likely, but you got my point).

Fixed that for ya ;).

Seriously though, I agree. Players like Tsonga and Berdych could very well have won a Slam in a different era, without the unprecedented top-heaviness of arguably the three greatest players of the Open Era "priming" at once. Look at some of the Slam winners of the 90s and early 00s: Petr Korda, Richard Krajicek, Goran Ivanisevic, Gaston Gaudio, Albert Costa, Thomas Johansson, Andres Gomez...can we honestly say that these guys were better than Berdych and Tsonga? Of course posterity will look a "Berga" (or Tsongdych) as being inferior, but I think they're roughly similar caliber.

I hear you about Zverev, although I think he is already at least the equal of most the guys you listed. As you know, I like to play with categories and such, and I think part of the problem with Zverev is that people are expecting him to be an "insta-elite," when what he's really trying to do now is stabilize in the "second tier" - the top 5-15 range. He's the same age Roger was in mid-2002, when Roger had only made a couple Slam QFs and gone no further, and just won his first Masters that year. That was also the first year Roger finished in the top 10, so technically Zverev is overall ahead of the Maestro.

Now obviously Zverev (almost certainly) won't be as good as Roger, and his game is far less complex so he should be able to reach his peak form sooner (remember @Haelfix's theory about Dimitrov's "moving parts"?). But we're still talking about a kid who is a few months shy of drinking in the US, so I'm not too worried. Players usually develop stage by stage, tier by tier. He jumped higher than expected last year, and now may need a year to stabilized in the top 10. A lot of folks, including myself, were predicting his first Slam next year, not this.

On the other hand, if he doesn't make at least one Slam QF this year, I'll be a tad worried....
 

Fiero425

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Fixed that for ya ;).

Seriously though, I agree. Players like Tsonga and Berdych could very well have won a Slam in a different era, without the unprecedented top-heaviness of arguably the three greatest players of the Open Era "priming" at once. Look at some of the Slam winners of the 90s and early 00s: Petr Korda, Richard Krajicek, Goran Ivanisevic, Gaston Gaudio, Albert Costa, Thomas Johansson, Andres Gomez...can we honestly say that these guys were better than Berdych and Tsonga? Of course posterity will look a "Berga" (or Tsongdych) as being inferior, but I think they're roughly similar caliber.

I hear you about Zverev, although I think he is already at least the equal of most the guys you listed. As you know, I like to play with categories and such, and I think part of the problem with Zverev is that people are expecting him to be an "insta-elite," when what he's really trying to do now is stabilize in the "second tier" - the top 5-15 range. He's the same age Roger was in mid-2002, when Roger had only made a couple Slam QFs and gone no further, and just won his first Masters that year. That was also the first year Roger finished in the top 10, so technically Zverev is overall ahead of the Maestro.

Now obviously Zverev (almost certainly) won't be as good as Roger, and his game is far less complex so he should be able to reach his peak form sooner (remember @Haelfix's theory about Dimitrov's "moving parts"?). But we're still talking about a kid who is a few months shy of drinking in the US, so I'm not too worried. Players usually develop stage by stage, tier by tier. He jumped higher than expected last year, and now may need a year to stabilized in the top 10. A lot of folks, including myself, were predicting his first Slam next year, not this.

On the other hand, if he doesn't make at least one Slam QF this year, I'll be a tad worried....

When did I say being in the TOP 10 perennially makes someone a loser? Players like Berdych or Ferrer are losers because "they lose" and never seem to have that one good tournament to win a major after all the years of toiling the fields! Like was said, there are so many other players actually do something and win like a Johansson, Cilic, Krajicek, and Gomez! These other players like Tsonga make one major final and they're done! :whistle: :facepalm: :eek: :rolleyes:
 

El Dude

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Haha, glad I could get you to come out for a mini-rant, Fiero :D.

I hear you, but the problem for "Tsongdych" is that they always have some great player to face in the Slams. On the rare occasion they can get past one, there's another waiting. It is a very harsh context to play your prime in.