Best wins by Big Three at Majors

[Moxie]

I was intrigued by @Fiero425's choice, in response to @Kieran's question as to which he thought was Novak's best win in a Major. Fiero said Novak beating Nadal at RG in 2021, which was a SF. As I said, I think that choice says more about Nadal than Djokovic.

I wonder which other ones Djokovic fans would pick. I have a few favorites as a Nadal fan, which likely won't surprise anyone. Which ones would the Federer fans put up? And they don't have to all be against each other. For example, Federer d. Sampras at Wimbledon 2001 was a classic changing-of-the-guard. And I'm sure Nadal fans will hold dear the 2022 final v. Medvedev. I don't know if there are any great ones for Novak that don't involve Fedal. The comeback v. Tsitsipas at the French? Curious to hear opinions, partizan or dispassionate.

 

[Moxie]

I will start, with my partizan ones:

Nadal:

* 2008 Wimbledon Final d. Federer

* 2009 AO Final d. Federer

* 2013 RG SF d. Djokovic

* 2013 USO Final d. Djokovic

* 2020 RG Final d. Djokovic

* 2022 AO Final d. Medvedev

(I should say the 2008 RG final d. Federer, because it was an absolute demolition. But I may as well mention it before someone brings up Djokovic's beatdown of Rafa at the AO in 2019. At least Rafa won 7 games to Roger's 4. )

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I will start, with my partizan ones:

Nadal:

* 2008 Wimbledon Final d. Federer

* 2009 AO Final d. Federer

* 2013 RG SF d. Djokovic

* 2013 USO Final d. Djokovic

* 2020 RG Final d. Djokovic

* 2022 AO Final d. Medvedev

(I should say the 2008 RG final d. Federer, because it was an absolute demolition. But I may as well mention it before someone brings up Djokovic's beatdown of Rafa at the AO in 2019. At least Rafa won 7 games to Roger's 4. )

Nadal won 8 games against Djokovic at the 2019 AO, not 7. However it's Djokovic who only won 7 games against Nadal at the 2020 FO including a bagel.

 

[Kieran]

I think for Rafa, his greatest is still the 2008 final, still the greatest match I’ve ever seen in terms of iconography, dramatic swings and tension, Federer being at his peak on his favourite surface, Rafa being so resolute and heroic in his pursuit of excellence across the board. Championship points lost, rain breaks, darkness in the final game.

If Rafa had lost that match, everything that came after would have been different, and Roger would have dominated for many more years.

I’d give a shout out to the 2013 USO final, and the 2022 Australian Open final also because Danii was on the up after winning the USO and becoming number 1, and Rafa had been out injured and was clearly enjoying himself playing again but was only able to win by exercising his enormous willpower and greater experience.

For Novak, it’s the 2012 Australian Open final, the culmination of his incredible surge in 2011. He was never as great as he was then. The FO semi in 2021 stands out as his greatest win on clay, though he’s played better than he did that day, and so has Rafa, obviously.

For Roger, I’d say the 2017 Australian Open final, hands down. He hadn’t beaten Rafa in a slam in 10 years and he got a bit cocky after this match and regained top spot in the rankings, won a couple more slams.

The next one for him would be a strange one but I’d pick his win over Haas in the FO in 2009. Rafa had lost the day before and Federer’s arse nearly dropped out of his shorts against Haas - he was break point down at 3-4 in the third, 2 sets down, and he pulled himself together. Yeah I know, it’s only Haas, old Strawballs, but it was immense given the pressure Federer was under.

 

[Moxie]

Actually, I thought about that Haas match for Roger, @Kieran. I think it's a good pick. Roger had even said that if Rafa was ever out of RG due to upset or injury, he was going to need to take his opportunity, so he was definitely feeling the pressure, and withstood it in the end. As to the 2017 AO final, his fans around her pretty much all called that one their favorite at the time.

I completely agree about the 2008 Wimbledon final...the greatness of the match itself, and the broader significance. Hell, Wertheim (and Rafa) got a book out of it, and TC a 2-hour documentary.

 

[Kieran]

Actually, I thought about that Haas match for Roger, @Kieran. I think it's a good pick. Roger had even said that if Rafa was ever out of RG due to upset or injury, he was going to need to take his opportunity, so he was definitely feeling the pressure, and withstood it in the end. As to the 2017 AO final, his fans around her pretty much all called that one their favorite at the time.

I completely agree about the 2008 Wimbledon final...the greatness of the match itself, and the broader significance. Hell, Wertheim (and Rafa) got a book out of it, and TC a 2-hour documentary.

Yeah the 2008 Wimbledon final was immense. Both men rose to the occasion. It’s impossible to top it, given they were both at their peak, too.

I always admired Roger for how he won that French. I think he went to five in the semi against Del Potro. He was like the ring bearer getting closer to Mt Doom. Even in the final some lunatic ran at him on court, with shades of Monica Seles. That incident alone would have made me root for him, but I was actually hoping he’d win anyway - players like Soderling were nobody’s idea of a champion, and I very seldom root for the underdog…

 

[Moxie]

Yeah the 2008 Wimbledon final was immense. Both men rose to the occasion. It’s impossible to top it, given they were both at their peak, too.

I always admired Roger for how he won that French. I think he went to five in the semi against Del Potro. He was like the ring bearer getting closer to Mt Doom. Even in the final some lunatic ran at him on court, with shades of Monica Seles. That incident alone would have made me root for him, but I was actually hoping he’d win anyway - players like Soderling were nobody’s idea of a champion, and I very seldom root for the underdog…

There is a reason (or many) why that 2008 Wimbledon final is considered The Greatest Match of All Time.

Like you, I consider it amongst Roger's great moments that he seized his opportunity at the 2009 Roland Garros. He had to fight for it. I think the Haas match was very much about his nerves, knowing that the trophy was reachable, and in Del Potro he still had a tough SF. But I have always thought that one mark of a champion is seizing the moment when the window of opportunity opens. He had it easiest in the final. Like you, I don't think Soderling was a great champion...just a great spoiler. Some will say we'll never know, since he had to retire early. But I think we know. He didn't have much to say v. Roger in that final, nor v. Rafa in the final a year later.

 

[El Dude]

My favorite Slam win by Rafa is the 2012 Australian Open final.

 

[Moxie]

My favorite Slam win by Rafa is the 2012 Australian Open final.

Oh, now, you old pill. Try to get into the spirit of the thing!

 

[El Dude]

Oh, now, you old pill. Try to get into the spirit of the thing!

Haha. Well, you know mine, I think: the 2017 AO Final.

2012 Wimbledon was sweet because it was Roger's first after a dry spell, although it was more the event than the match itself. Also, 2009 RG because of how much it meant to Roger and his emotion display, but again that wasn't as much the drama of the match as the accomplishment.

 

[Federberg]

hmmm... good thread... You can take it as a given that the first slam is always included, so I'll focus on the others...

For me.. for Roger... Wimbledon 2007 (because I was there, and it was 5 in a row);
RG 2009 the whole bloody tournament, except perhaps the final was... meh.. apart from the nutter that came on court. His wins against Haas and Delpo
AO 2017 (I've watched the thing probably 20 times end to end, it's like comfort food for me).

Alcaraz only has two, but I'm convinced that in a decade I'll still say that his Wimbledon win this year is on a similar level to Roger's Wimbledon 07. To do that against a dominant champion like that?? I had to put this one in here, even if he's not a Big3 guy. But that final was him doing Big3 things

Djokovic... for me... his win at Flushing in 2012. I think the brutality of the tennis. The fact that Rafa was playing well, kept getting leads and kept getting reeled in. I know Novak was already having a great year, but that win finally knocked it into my head that he was most definitely on a par with the other two. It could no longer be denied

Rafa... Ugh... Wimbledon 2008. I say 'ugh' not because it's Rafa. The lights at the end. It was too painful for me. But dammit... it was impressive. To be reeled back in by Roger and to go out and close out that 5th set on the other guy's home court was massive to me.

 

[Moxie]

hmmm... good thread... You can take it as a given that the first slam is always included, so I'll focus on the others...

For me.. for Roger... Wimbledon 2007 (because I was there, and it was 5 in a row);
RG 2009 the whole bloody tournament, except perhaps the final was... meh.. apart from the nutter that came on court. His wins against Haas and Delpo
AO 2017 (I've watched the thing probably 20 times end to end, it's like comfort food for me).

Alcaraz only has two, but I'm convinced that in a decade I'll still say that his Wimbledon win this year is on a similar level to Roger's Wimbledon 07. To do that against a dominant champion like that?? I had to put this one in here, even if he's not a Big3 guy. But that final was him doing Big3 things

Djokovic... for me... his win at Flushing in 2012. I think the brutality of the tennis. The fact that Rafa was playing well, kept getting leads and kept getting reeled in. I know Novak was already having a great year, but that win finally knocked it into my head that he was most definitely on a par with the other two. It could no longer be denied

Rafa... Ugh... Wimbledon 2008. I say 'ugh' not because it's Rafa. The lights at the end. It was too painful for me. But dammit... it was impressive. To be reeled back in by Roger and to go out and close out that 5th set on the other guy's home court was massive to me.

I'm glad you mentioned the Alcaraz win at Wimbledon this year v. Djokovic. IMO, threads like this can be a moveable feast...a taking-off point to other thoughts. As you say, "that final was him doing Big 3 things." (I like that phrase.) It was a career-defining win. @El Dude said of Charly in another thread, a while back, that a certain proving ground for him would be beating Rafa at RG, or Novak at any other Major. I suggested he might not get the chance; and I doubt he will, at Rafa/RG. Window is narrow. But he did beat a still in-form Novak at Wimbledon, and that will forever be a feather in his cap.

I totally get the 2017 AO final Roger d. Rafa. Sweet revenge, esp. with Rafa up the break in the 5th. But Roger WAS the better player in that match. I also love that you admit to repeated viewings of it. I don't know how many times I've rewatched the 2008 Wimbledon final, but there are others. Comfort food, as you say. We've also had threads to ask which matches of your favorite do you wish had come out differently, and I don't pick that one, because I know how delicious it was for the Federer fans, and many of you here are my friends. I've got several others in front of it, easily. LOL.

 

[nehmeth]

A favorite for me was the 2019 Wimbledon final. The two best grass court players of this era (maybe any), left it all out there on the Centre Court of SW19. Federer had match points. It was also the first time the 12-12 fifth set tiebreak was played. Novak withstood the Maestro and partisan crowd in silence and allowed his tennis to do the talking. Great win for him in a classic.

Another favorite was the 2021 French Open Final. Novak had come back from 2 sets to love down to beat Musetti and then faced another tough match against Berretini, before meeting Nadal in the semis. He took down the clay goat on his own turf to make it to the final. Once again, against Tsitsipas he found himself down 2 sets to none. The comeback was incredible. He is the only player to come back twice from a two sets to love deficit and still win a slam.

The last one was the 2012 Australian Open Final. Playing on his best surface, it took Novak almost six hours to defeat Nadal. The guys were so tired they needed chairs to sit through the ceremony instead of standing. Some of gutsiest tennis I‘ve ever seen from both of these warriors..

 

[El Dude]

A favorite for me was the 2019 Wimbledon final. The two best grass court players of this era (maybe any), left it all out there on the Centre Court of SW19. Federer had match points. It was also the first time the 12-12 fifth set tiebreak was played. Novak withstood the Maestro and partisan crowd in silence and allowed his tennis to do the talking. Great win for him in a classic.

Another favorite was the 2021 French Open Final. Novak had come back from 2 sets to love down to beat Musetti and then faced another tough match against Berretini, before meeting Nadal in the semis. He took down the clay goat on his own turf to make it to the final. Once again, against Tsitsipas he found himself down 2 sets to none. The comeback was incredible. He is the only player to come back twice from a two sets to love deficit and still win a slam.

The last one was the 2012 Australian Open Final. Playing on his best surface, it took Novak almost six hours to defeat Nadal. The guys were so tired they needed chairs to sit through the ceremony instead of standing. Some of gutsiest tennis I‘ve ever seen from both of these warriors..

2019 Wimbledon was my least favorite loss for Roger ever. It was just brutal, and I couldn't follow tennis for a few months.

 

[Moxie]

I think this one was more gutting for Federer’s fans than 2008. The win was on the tip of his racquet.

They all said in basically one voice (here, anyway,) that it jumped over 2008 Wimbledon final as their most devastating of Roger's losses, and I get it. Two match points on his racquet, and he couldn't close the deal. That was a rough loss, for Roger, and for his fans.

 

[El Dude]

They all said in basically one voice (here, anyway,) that it jumped over 2008 Wimbledon final as their most devastating of Roger's losses, and I get it. Two match points on his racquet, and he couldn't close the deal. That was a rough loss, for Roger, and for his fans.

I think it also felt like his last real shot. It was also the most "Rogery" of Roger losses and exemplified a way in which Rafa and Novak surpassed him: their indomitable will to win. I know Roger was a great competitor, but Rafa and Novak were even greater, and probably just smarter tacticians.

As far as 2008 Wimbledon is concerned, I think it is such a great, historic match and such a wonderful moment for Rafa, that I can't be sore about it. It was a beautiful match, and Rafa earned it. This isn't to say that Novak didn't earn 2019, but that it felt more like Roger blowing it. I know some Roger fans will say he blew it in 2008, but I don't see it that way. To me it felt like the passing of the baton - or rather, Rafa wrestling it away from Roger. So in a way, it was Rafa playing the match of his life against the greatest grass player of all time (or one of the top two or three), and winning. Novak doesn't have that kind of win over Roger at a final because they were similarly good on the different surfaces, whereas Rafa--while a great grass player--was a big step down. It would almost have been like Roger beating Rafa at RG...but alas, that wasn't meant to be. I suppose the closest thing for Rafa fans would be if he had beaten Novak in an AO or Wim final, but that is very unlikely to happen at this point.

 

[Moxie]

I think it also felt like his last real shot. It was also the most "Rogery" of Roger losses and exemplified a way in which Rafa and Novak surpassed him: their indomitable will to win. I know Roger was a great competitor, but Rafa and Novak were even greater, and probably just smarter tacticians.

I don't know that they are smarter tacticians. Roger had many weapons in his arsenal, and he knew how to use them. But he may have been unlucky in coming first. Forgive me for quoting a film that I kind of hate, but in "The Way We Were," Robert Redford's character writes: "Everything came too easily to him," speaking of himself. Robert Redford makes a good stand-in for Roger: smooth, suave, rather perfect in every way. I don't know that it helped that David Foster Wallace wrote that essay: "Roger Federer as Religious Experience." Roger got along, once he found his A-Game, just by playing, untouchably, for a time. Rafa and Novak always had to scrap, because Roger was in front of them, and they were younger. It was a high bar. Roger created his own bar. I think for a while he thought Nadal would eventually knuckle under. When he got older, especially, and was called upon to be scrappy, sometimes he was, and sometimes he wasn't. But he didn't have the same muscle-memory for it that they did. They never had the option NOT to. This is not the same as "weak-era" theories, I hope you understand.

As far as 2008 Wimbledon is concerned, I think it is such a great, historic match and such a wonderful moment for Rafa, that I can't be sore about it. It was a beautiful match, and Rafa earned it. This isn't to say that Novak didn't earn 2019, but that it felt more like Roger blowing it. I know some Roger fans will say he blew it in 2008, but I don't see it that way. To me it felt like the passing of the baton - or rather, Rafa wrestling it away from Roger. So in a way, it was Rafa playing the match of his life against the greatest grass player of all time (or one of the top two or three), and winning. Novak doesn't have that kind of win over Roger at a final because they were similarly good on the different surfaces, whereas Rafa--while a great grass player--was a big step down. It would almost have been like Roger beating Rafa at RG...but alas, that wasn't meant to be. I suppose the closest thing for Rafa fans would be if he had beaten Novak in an AO or Wim final, but that is very unlikely to happen at this point.

I appreciate your saying this.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Actually, as a non - Federer fan, I would say that the 2011 RG SF win against Djokovic was probably one of his best wins of his career!

Just think of this: Djokovic came to that match having a 41-match win streak and I think everyone thought Djokovic will beat Federer and reach the RG Final.

Also, in addition, that was on Clay, Federer's weakest surface! Finally, I just loved when Federer hit the ace on match point and did the classic finger wag at the crowd with no lights! That was classic Federer performance and personality!

As for Nadal, there are couple of ones:

First, the 2017 AO 3rd Round match against Zverev. The way he won that match against an upcoming Zverev showed me that Nadal was getting close to coming back to his normal level.

Next, the 2017 AO QF match against Raonic. I remembered I was nervous before that match because Raonic was ranked no.3 in the world and he just beaten Nadal in Brisbane prior to the AO. And when Nadal won that in straight sets, I was like, "Oh, Nadal is officially back!"

Finally, the 2017 RG Final against Stan Wawrinka. Stan's face trying to defend those relentless and aggressive tennis balls from Nadal were amazing to watch because he was like, "How can I even play against THIS version of Nadal on Clay at RG?!"

Honorable mention: 2019 AO SF match against Tsitsipas. That was a REAL education slam match for Tsitsipas especially after beating Federer in the same tournament!

 

[tented]

There is a reason (or many) why that 2008 Wimbledon final is considered The Greatest Match of All Time.

Like you, I consider it amongst Roger's great moments that he seized his opportunity at the 2009 Roland Garros. He had to fight for it. I think the Haas match was very much about his nerves, knowing that the trophy was reachable, and in Del Potro he still had a tough SF. But I have always thought that one mark of a champion is seizing the moment when the window of opportunity opens. He had it easiest in the final.

Completely agree. I also view Roger’s 2009 RG as a series of wins. The Haas match was a nail biter, with That Shot which saved him getting broken. The JMDP SF was epic. Like many majors, this was an occasion when the SF was better than the final. You could see the fierce determination in Roger to get to the final.

Like you, I don't think Soderling was a great champion...just a great spoiler. Some will say we'll never know, since he had to retire early. But I think we know. He didn't have much to say v. Roger in that final, nor v. Rafa in the final a year later.

Just wanted to highlight that a little bit.

 

[tented]

The last one was the 2012 Australian Open Final. Playing on his best surface, it took Novak almost six hours to defeat Nadal. The guys were so tired they needed chairs to sit through the ceremony instead of standing. Some of gutsiest tennis I‘ve ever seen from both of these warriors..

But, honestly, have you ever gone back and watched it? As in, all of it? It was historically long, but duration doesn’t automatically mean quality. If that were true, the Isner/Mahut match would be the greatest of all time, when in fact I’ve heard it has been used to great success to get terrorists to talk after forcing them to sit through the whole thing.

For Novak, I would pick the 2008 AO SF/F — he stopped Roger’s incredible run in major finals, before going on to win his maiden slam. I still remember the look on his face after championship point. Like @Federberg said, the first one is a given, but I still think this one is worth pointing out.

The 2019 W final would be another. Novak had saved MPs against Roger before, but this was a Wimbledon final. I remember telling the people I was watching it with that Novak was going to win, after Federer blew those 2 CPs.